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Hee-hee-hee! I keep HOPING we are misunderstanding one another! That would make me much more comfortable.
Yes, the apostles.
Yes.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Right, but it was also for learning grace.
Agreed
So we're both PKs??
Can you point some of these out to me? And where Messiah accused the writers of the Torah of misrepresenting Torah?
I am Messianic. As you know Paul (with whom I have no gripe) wrote that our ethnicity and gender do not matter before G-d.
I wrote ...
Quote:
When you say "keeping Torah" do you mean observing the Law?
... regarding the apostles. To which you replied ...
Quote:
Yes
How then do you respond the fact that when Peter was teaching others to observe the law, the apostle Paul publicly rebuked him and then Peter conceded the point ?
Galatians 2:11-21
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
I am particularly interested in how you interpret the above words in red if you believe the apostles observed the law. Paul clearly states that Peter lived like a gentile and not like a Jew(i.e. he himself did not observe the law), but when confronted by the Jewish Christians sent by James, the apostle Peter started commanding even the gentile Christians to observe the law, and treated them like second class citizens by refusing to eat with them as if they were unclean. Those are the very reasons why Paul rebuked him.
Can you provide even one verse from the new testament where the apostles taught others that they should observe the old testament law, or even one place that proves the apostles themselves continued to observe the law?
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-28-2010 at 10:41 PM..
Oh! And I have no problem with G-d's decisions re the Scriptures you quoted in Post #123.
You don't have any problem with the law that commands parents to have their children killed for being rebellious?
You don't have any problem with the law that said a virgin who is raped in the country has to marry the man who raped her?
You don't have any problem with the law that commands people to kill everyone(and even all the animals) in a town where other religions are taught and believed by some of the citizens?
You don't have any problem with the law that says its okay to kill someone who accidentally killed one of their relatives if they are not in a safe city?
You don't have any problem with the law which states adulterous woman should be stoned? Even Jesus had a problem with that law, and proved it when he saved the adulterous women who was about to be stoned.
If you don't have problems with those laws, then we really do have a very different opinion of who God really is ...
You don't have any problem with the law that commands parents to have their children killed for being rebellious?
You don't have any problem with the law that said a virgin who is raped in the country has to marry the man who raped her?
You don't have any problem with the law that commands people to kill everyone(and even all the animals) in a town where other religions are taught and believed by some of the citizens?
You don't have any problem with the law that says its okay to kill someone who accidentally killed one of their relatives if they are not in a safe city?
You don't have any problem with the law which states adulterous woman should be stoned? Even Jesus had a problem with that law, and proved it when he saved the adulterous women who was about to be stoned.
If you don't have problems with those laws, then we really do have a very different opinion of who God really is ...
Peace ...
When I read that I could not even think of a question, I am glad you did.
Not a single problem. I have no problem whatsoever with G-d. But I am too tired to continue right now. I am going to bed. You can both trounce me tomorrow , and I will tell you why, if you want to know.
Not a single problem. I have no problem whatsoever with G-d. But I am too tired to continue right now.
I am going to bed. You can both trounce me tomorrow , and I will tell you why, if you want to know.
If you do not have a problem with those laws im not sure i want to know the reasons why ... But hey, your free to explain if you want to ...
Just like i wouldn't want to know why extremist Muslims think it is alright to beat women publicly who have been raped, or to kill people who believe in different religions by suicide bombing or ramming airplanes into buildings.
That's between you and your God, i just thank God that the government of this country does have a problem with those old testament laws and keeps people who agree with them from actually observing them.
Good night ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-28-2010 at 11:03 PM..
... regarding the apostles. To which you replied ...
How then do you respond the fact that when Peter was teaching others to observe the law, the apostle Paul publicly rebuked him and then Peter conceded the point ?
Galatians 2:11-21
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
I am particularly interested in how you interpret the above words in red if you believe the apostles observed the law. Paul clearly states that Peter lived like a gentile and not like a Jew(i.e. he himself did not observe the law), but when confronted by the Jewish Christians sent by James, the apostle Peter started commanding even the gentile Christians to observe the law, and treated them like second class citizens by refusing to eat with them as if they were unclean. Those are the very reasons why Paul rebuked him.
Can you provide even one verse from the new testament where the apostles taught others that they should observe the old testament law, or even one place that proves the apostles themselves continued to observe the law?
Peace ...
Well, I awoke in the night, so here I am. I am thankful for being able to read your post in plain black-wnd-white, because those colored letters send me into grizzemhoffenbaddles <- a made up word for I can't read them because they kick in both my dyslexia and ADD!
Oh, opps! They are still too hard to read because of all the commands!
Okay. I think you only mentioned the time when Peter was embarrassed when he was confronted by the presence of the Circumcision, and he was caught eating with Gentiles? He was over there DOING what the vision had told him to DO, but he was obviously not over there eating ham sandwiches. He was simply embarrassed to be doing what G-d had commanded him to do when the Circumcision walked in. Paul was calling him to be settled in doing what was right and to not hide it from the Circumcision.
The Circumcision within the early Judaism that followed Messiah could be hard on people, and obviously, Peter knew that. He was obviously there when the Circumcision first raised the question about whether or not the Gentiles could be believers when they did not yet know enough to follow Torah.
I just wanted to clarify that i find much of the old testament beautiful and inspirational ... But not all of it, like Deuteronomy 13:12-16 ...
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 (religious intolerance)
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (rebellious children)
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
"They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
Or ...
Numbers 35:22-27 (accidental death)
But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil. 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder.
Or ...
Exodus 21:2-21 (slavery)
"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
"If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
"If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 22:25-29 (rape in the country)
But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
Or ...
Numbers 5:12-28(suspected female infidelity)
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
" 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
" 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (family members with different religious beliefs)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Etc ...
All these parts of the Old testament, and all the other stuff like it i did not mention, i don't find to be particularly beautiful or inspiring. In fact i find them to be quite barbaric and twisted ...
Its interesting to note that Jesus must not have liked them much either, as he saved the woman who was discovered to be an adulterer instead of obeying the law.
Peace ...
Before I start telling you why I have no problem with the G-d Who made such laws, let me ask you some questions, because depending upon your answer, your questions about the Scriptures above may or may not be worth answering!
Do you believe there is one G-d?
Do you believe that the G-d in the beginning 2/3 of the Bible is the same G-d of the latter 1/3 of the Bible?
Do you believe that the G-d of Genesis is the same one and only G-d of our world today?
Do you believe that the Torah was written under the authority of the same G-d who is G-d today?
Or do you believe there were different gods?
I accept that you may not believe Jesus was born without sin, or that you do not accept what Christianity teaches concerning these things.
However, i wonder why you will not post scriptural evidence for what you are claiming to be true when you say things like ...
I would be interested in seeing the scriptures you base the above statements on ... I am not saying that they do not exist, i am merely asking you to produce them if they do exist.
Once you have established your premise in the above statement by scripture and prove my explanations to be false, we can go from there ...
Peace ...
Qualifications for Messiah in the Hebrew bible are quite specific and as you will find below, Jesus didn't even begin to qualify let alone fulfill, in his lifetime, what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to accomplish.
The following are the only Jewish scriptures that Jews consider to be Messianic in nature:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
You are claiming that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy through adoption. There are two major problems with this claim:
a) There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn't have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30)
Christian apologists will claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four major problems with this claim:
a) There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's.
b) Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59.
c) Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). The third chapter of Luke is irrelevant to this discussion because it describes lineage of David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d) Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
Now, since I've provided you with what you asked for perhaps you, or anyone else who would like to, can attempt to provide me with what I've asked for:
Based on what is taught by Christianity regarding that we are all born in the sin of Adam. I'm curious how do Christians get around that fact that Jesus was born of Mary, a sinner??? If Jesus was born of a sinner (which Mary definitely was based on Christian teaching)...then he is also a sinner and could not possibly be born sinless...for he would also carry the sin of Adam through his mother.
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