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2Ti 2:24-26
It is God who gives repentance to people, they cannot simply choose to repent unless he works within them and causes them to repent. Only then will they come to their senses and acknowledge the truth and be freed from the devils trap, and from their bondage to sin and unbelief.
Unfortunately most Christians do not understand this,...
Peace ...
Unfortunately most Christians do not understand this..... people refuse to repent.
Job 34:33
Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent?
Jeremiah 5:3
O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You struck them, but they felt no pain; you crushed them, but they refused correction. They made their faces harder than stone and refused to repent.
Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Truly pathetic ..... for the clay to determine what is justice for those who refuse to repent
My current inclination, after years of pondering this question, is that the condemned are thrown into the Lake of Fire, die the second death, and cease to exist. Eternal torment is for Satan and his demons. However, the scriptures can lead to other understandings and I am not supremely confident in this belief. It is wise to consider that the other interpretation may be correct, however horrible the implications.
The "eternal" lake of fire refers to the permanence of the result...not the continuaton of a process. Look at Jude 7...it says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.
"to destroy–apollumi."
The fact that Jesus clearly speaks of God destroying both the soul and body in hell shows that hell is the place where sinners are ultimately destroyed and not eternally tormented.
The combination of these two passages:
[Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus repeats what He had said earlier in (Matt 5:29-30) about forfeiting a member of the body in order to escape the "eternal fire" of hell–gehenna. An even clearer reference to "eternal fire" is found in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in which Christ speaks of the separation that takes place at His coming between the saved and the unsaved. He will welcome the faithful into His kingdom, but will reject the wicked, saying: "Depart from me, you cursed, into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:41, 46).]
...is interpreted to mean that the punishment is eternal because the hellfire that causes it is also eternal.
["The fire itself is termed ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable,’ but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which ‘rises for ever and ever’ (Rev 14:11; cf. 19:3)."
The fire is "eternal–aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. This is indicated clearly by the fact that the lake of fire, in which the wicked are thrown, is called explicitly "the second death" (Rev 20:14; 21:8), because, it causes the final, radical, and irreversible extinction of life.] John Slott.
...and I totally, with all of my heart, agree.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
So, how long does a sinner have to endure the torment of the flame in hell before that soul is annihilated?
Marmac, do you LOVE Hitler, Dalmer, Sadam, Manson, Osama, etc..?
If you don't then that is NOT Christian.
I think you meant Damler, but, which of those mentioned were fellow believers? The Bible has the word "hate" in it as expressed by God himself on several occasions. The command is to love our "brothers", not every godless evil creature in creation. Loving fellow believers can be difficult enough...
My current inclination, after years of pondering this question, is that the condemned are thrown into the Lake of Fire, die the second death, and cease to exist. Eternal torment is for Satan and his demons. However, the scriptures can lead to other understandings and I am not supremely confident in this belief. It is wise to consider that the other interpretation may be correct, however horrible the implications.
Hi Bideshi, I have actually believe in traditional Hell (I was raised as a non-devout Roman Catholic) and then later as I studied I embraced annihilationism (adhered to Herbert Armstrong's teachings) and then later was shown the error of that doctrine and now understand God shall save all. The Lake of Fire is just a allegory for the fact that everyone will have their Evil nature purged. Remember that we seen this in scripture where the Apostles had cloven tongues of fire upon their heads at Pentacost. And that the scriptures say that God makes His ministers flames of fire. And remember that it was a Lake where baptisms take place.
And Matthew 3:11 shows that Jesus would baptize with the Fire of the Holy Spirit.
So the Lake of Fire is a telling us that those that are still wicked are going to be converted.
I think you meant Damler, but, which of those mentioned were fellow believers? The Bible has the word "hate" in it as expressed by God himself on several occasions. The command is to love our "brothers", not every godless evil creature in creation. Loving fellow believers can be difficult enough...
I did mean Damler, thanks for that correction. I don't believe any of them were believers. The command is to Love ALL.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
But yes you are correct that not all are GOOD. But ALL will be in DUE time.
God IS Love therefore His hate IS Love also. But our Hate is not Love. So when God hates us it is for OUR Benefit. When we HATE others it is not for their benefit.
People are like people in a cafeteria-------picking and choosing.
They choose/pick to believe Jesus said " love your neighbor", but refuse to believe/pick any of Jesus words on eterna; damnation.
Why is that ?
As I stated earlier, it makes them uncomfortable .
Yes, and their diatribes against hell prove it. People are so deceived during this dispensation of grace. Since they don't see judgement carried out like it was supposed to be carried out in the OT, they delude themselves that judgement will never come; but it's coming.
Joshua 7
[7] And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
[8] O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
[9] For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
[10] And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
[11] Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
[12] Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
[13] Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
[14] In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
[15] And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
[16] So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken:
[17] And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken:
[18] And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.
[19] And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.
[20] And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:
[21] When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.
[22] So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.
[23] And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.
[24] And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
[25] And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
[26] And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.
Ignorance is bad enough . . . but riled up and public ignorance is an abomination before God. There is no eternal torment. We will "reap what we sow" . . . there is NO possibility to sow eternal ANYTHING in a finite life!! Jesus provides us the eternal life . . . nothing we do. Abandon the perpetuation of primitive ignorance in the name of faith. It was never intended for you to have faith in the ignorant interpretations of our primitive ancestors. Our faith is in God and what He has "written in our hearts" and what His Holy Spirit guides us to understand under "love of God and each other." Grow up and mature . . . do not deliberately remain spiritual infants under the guidance of the "precepts and doctrines of men."
Now notice your statement. You admit that there is a QUALIFICATION to be saved. Notice, I said One CANNOT Qualify to be saved.
Yes, I had noticed what you had said, and I'll reply the same again: the only "qualification" needed to be saved is a belief in, and receiving, Jesus Christ as Lord. That word "qualification" is your word, not mine. (it's NOT in the Bible)...
Therefore, I have to disagree that one cannot "qualify" to be saved. Those who have believed in, and received, Jesus, are indeed "qualified". (if you must insist on using that term) If you are saying there is some other way to eternal life with God, other than receiving Jesus Christ, then you are preaching a false gospel, IMO.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree...ok?
Bud
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