The phrase 'Forever and Ever' means 'unending', as a simple comparison shows. / The Various Expressions of Eternity. (paradise, Christ)
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You may have hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we want to believe that the "really bad" (Hitler is the stock example here, overused but easy to pull out so I'm using him) people will be punished...and punished...and punished...and punished...and punished. I think that's normal. So-and-so hurt me or someone I love or one of my ideals so badly, I just want to see him/her punished times a thousand.
I believe that the idea of pain upon pain upon pain rather than a swift end as one's "punishment" is a very human one but I don't see why God would feel that way. That would mean God was literally enjoying pain. If it were just a question of putting people aside, he'd let them fall asleep at death so they could never hurt another person.
They could also never experience the positive sides of a happy afterlife, whatever those may be. Obviously that's a permanent consequence too.
But there would be NO reason to punish painfully every day for an eternity. What would that serve? It wouldn't teach the person a lesson since it's too late for him/her at that point. It couldn't possibly gratify the people who do make it into heaven -- anyone who would enjoy watching people scream and beg endlessly for an eternity could not POSSIBLY be sinless and good enough to go to heaven. It couldn't be to make the devil happy, why would God be required to make the devil happy? It can't be because souls can't die and they have to go somewhere, as supposedly, eventually the devil and hell will be destroyed.
So the ONLY reason for permanent ongoing torture could be that God liked it. And if God likes eternal torture then he probably doesn't want the "good people" in heaven anyway. How could anyone love goodness and also love looking down to see people having their entrails pulled out, their eyes poked out, limbs torn off and chewed?
I do believe that the idea of all this torment came from ill, exceedingly wrathful people, beginning some few hundred years after Jesus' death at least as far as we can tell looking at literature, and that it is still an idea many of us secretly, childishly harbor: that anyone who hurts us pays...times ten. Times eternity, actually.
Just my take.
Another very reasonable and just and merciful post. "Come, let us REASON together..."
It does NOT refer to TIME, Mike. Telos is strictly an end point as in a boundary . . . NOT in duration. In genetics they refer to telomeres . . . the end points of a gene sequence.
Yes, they do. I never thought of that before. And wasn't the root word of Telos said to be inscribed on the cross of Christ meaning 'It is Finished" ? Language is so amazing and fascinating. I'm glad I live in an eon when language is well developed! It's a privilege.
That which has no end does not terminate, but continues on forever. The word 'ouk' means 'not' and negates the meaning of 'telos' which means 'end'. 'ouk estai telos' means 'there will not be an end'.
The kingdom which will have no end will be forever.
The fact that the kingdom is said to have no end emphasizes the fact that it will last forever. This is not a difficult thing to understand.
The only kingdom that will have no end is Christ's Kingdom. But your belief is that Satan's Kingdom will remain forever in hell. But the bible says death and hell will have an end in the lake of fire.
What I find very sad and awful is this tenacious defense of the single most evil concept devised by the mind of man . . . of eternal unending punishment and torture forever and ever . . . AS IF it could EVER be a part of Christ's Gospel. You and I agree on the proper way of life, the avoidance of ALL the same "sins," the role of Christ as Savior, Christ as the Way, Truth and Life, the need to follow His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't, Cyber. Why is it you would see me damned for rejecting such an unending evil as coming from God when it can achieve no conceivable purpose whatsoever. I support NONE of the evils or sins you deplore. What is it about this particular doctrine that is so central to God in your mind?
I can answer that. It is a POWER TOOL. It is the weapon of choice that Satan prefers, a threat that can be used to hang over the heads of others to control them. It's all about the lust for power over others. Believe this - or else.
Why would God allow anyone who has rejected him into his kingdom?
Because he IS LOVE. There is no one who has not rejected God. We are born into sin. We are subjected to corruption by God's own will and pre-determined counsel. God made sure we were lost in Adam. For a purpose. He caused the Jews to reject the Savior - for a purpose. God is in control of his Creation. Do you believe that?
The darkened mind belongs to those who twist the Scriptures to avoid facing the truth.
Revelation 20:10 is indeed about the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Satan is thrown into the lake of fire AFTER the end of the Millennium. He is imprisoned in the abyss (the abyss is not the lake of fire) for the duration of the Millennium (Rev. 20:2), and then temporarily released at the end of the Millennium to deceive the nations as per Rev. 20:7, and then thrown into the lake of fire forever as per Rev. 20:10.
The beast and the false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them there. The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at the beginning of the Millennium as per Rev. 19:20.
Mike, I am not saying Revelation 20 is not about the lake of fire. I am saying Matthew 25:31-46 is not the Great White throne judgment. The Matthew judgment takes place in the vale of Tophet. The Judgment at the Great white throne is after heaven and earth have fled away.
The Matthew judgment is 1000 years prior to the G.W.T. judgment.
The G.W.T. judgment is for all mankind acts.
The Matthew judgment is concerning NATIONS and how they treated Christ's brethren.
The Matthew judgment is "pertaining to the age."
The G.W.T. judgment is "for the ages of the ages" (which takes place just before the 1000 year age ends and lasts through the new earth age.
You keep using a translation that has "eternal" in it but I assure you, No one in the original bible ever used the word "eternal" nor the thought. It was either Olam/ or Aiwn/Aiwnion.
The only kingdom that will have no end is Christ's Kingdom. But your belief is that Satan's Kingdom will remain forever in hell. But the bible says death and hell will have an end in the lake of fire.
Satan will have no kingdom in the lake of fire. He will be just another prisoner along with all others who reside there. It is physical death which is destroyed because of the fact that all men, both believer and unbeliever, will be physically resurrected. But the resurrected bodies of unbelievers will be designed for the lake of fire where they will reside throughout the endless eternal future.
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I tried to Rep you for that. But i have to wait a while longer.
