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Brother your forcing an interpretation of a chapter into the whole book, when you dont have clear evidence that this is so. This the problem with your entire argument. You are using someone elses wrong to make judgment. I am totaly with you in the fact that Isaiah 14 has no evidence in it that the morning star mentioned in it is Satan. At the same time that doesnt put me in a position to come to other conclusion, like satan is or is not an angel, the fact is we dont have enough givens in the bible about this. Brother I am only to happy to accept your conclusions IF you have clear scriptural givens. And please hear me out, and dont take this personal, we are all wanting to learn in this race, its not about proving a point, or being faithfull to my point of view, thats dangerous. We just want to learn, learn what He says in His Word, without adding or subtracting.
Hi Timothy, I am sharing what I understand the phrase, "in the beginning" in this context to mean and there are others , including Biblical scholars who share the same understanding. I am not saying this to say that this is correct, but to share that they also believe that this perspective is supported in the scriptures. I will try to post more on this later. By the way, my name is Shana and I am a sister. God bless!
Now Shane you do realize, without arguing your point, when it comes to the time phrases given in these verse there are a number of possibilities. The begining we have is the begining of what? Begining of time? Begining of creation of heavenly beings? Begining of sin? Begining of earth? Begining of the fall of man? lol. I am not trying to confuse you mate, I am merely trying to point out that it can be very easy to assume something without sufficient scriptural backing, just like the lucifer and satan thing. So when the bible speaks of satan being evil from the beginning we have to ask ourself what beginning is the verse talking about, without assuming.
This is what I'm on to also. The beginning of what. If there is not enough scriptural evidence to show when and who he was , then mabye we're not supposed to know in our logical understanding and reasoning. IMO with no disrespect to you Shana; on this one I believe this thread will be going in circles
with no definitive answer; But I can say this we know who he is now, and what the prophets of the Holy scriptures have to offer; and that he's our adversary and he's trying to still be like The Most High God, since he was given the earth, I know that he is roaming to and fro seeking whom he may devour, I know that the adversary and his cohort are destructive and are constantly seeking ways to pervert everyone, Even though we may not be accurate on his timeline and names no more than what the Bible explains to us from the prophet Isaiah. But he is the one who possess and influence innocent people to murder and molest their own children, he uses drugs to anesthesize anyone from children to the elderly; he is evil and who cares what his name was Lucifer or satan; we should focus on Jesus The Author and Finisher of our faith" Not that anyone who posted here is giving props to satan, But to me he's not that important when it comes to his former title. He is who he is a "defeated foe" by the shed blood of Calvary" when Jesus said it is finished it is finished" IMO and not to be giving any glory or oppotunity to cause schisms within the body of believers. " Let us fix our eyes on the Lord and Saviour our Redeemer" again Shana this is my opinion; I feel that you are a strong believer and have a lot of faith " I don't feel that anyone will know the answers, lest the holy spirit gives them more than what he's already has.
God Bless You
Hi Ywjhshalomjr, thank you very much for your comments. I hope that it doesn't look like I am trying to cause schism or create conflict. I just wanted to share from a perspective that many Christians believe are supported in the scriptures which is a alternative to the perspective that many Christians believe are supported in the scriptures. Here are 2 links that shed more light on the first perspective for anyone who might be interested.
My main reason for posting comes from the perspective that yes, satan is our adversary and he is our enemy. He is a roaring lion seeking to devour but I also believe that his ability to do this is due to the belief that God has this purpose for him in His overall plan of things. I don't think that his evil nature or sinfulness (whether he was made that way at the beginning or became that way later) was outside of the plan of God. God sees beginning to end, I believe, and He knew what would would transpire in His creation. He knew what would happen in the beginning. And if He knew this when He created, He brought it into being, but I believe for a good purpose. And I know that many disagree with this, but I believe that it is to be considered if anyone is willing to consider. I believe that this all ties into glorious God's sovereignty. It is an alternative perspective or belief to the view that satan of his own free will decided to rebel against God. Does this mean that something went wrong in the creation of God? If satan was created as a perfect being, why would he rebel? Was there something inherent in his makeup that caused him to go in that direction? And was he in fact created perfect as many believe if this happened? Or was he was created to be an evil factor in the universe according to God's purpose and plan? Has everything that transpired in the creation happened for a reason? All the more to fix our eyes on Jesus and to realize that all that happened was not a mistake but the direct result of God's purpose for us. We would never know Jesus as our Savior and realize the nature and extent of the love of God for us without the introduction of evil into the universe, I believe. Hope this makes sense. Thank you again for sharing and I appreciate your kind comments. God bless!
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-04-2007 at 07:44 AM..
This is what I'm on to also. The beginning of what. If there is not enough scriptural evidence to show when and who he was , then mabye we're not supposed to know in our logical understanding and reasoning. IMO with no disrespect to you Shana; on this one I believe this thread will be going in circles
with no definitive answer; But I can say this we know who he is now, and what the prophets of the Holy scriptures have to offer; and that he's our adversary and he's trying to still be like The Most High God, since he was given the earth, I know that he is roaming to and fro seeking whom he may devour, I know that the adversary and his cohort are destructive and are constantly seeking ways to pervert everyone, Even though we may not be accurate on his timeline and names no more than what the Bible explains to us from the prophet Isaiah. But he is the one who possess and influence innocent people to murder and molest their own children, he uses drugs to anesthesize anyone from children to the elderly; he is evil and who cares what his name was Lucifer or satan; we should focus on Jesus The Author and Finisher of our faith" Not that anyone who posted here is giving props to satan, But to me he's not that important when it comes to his former title. He is who he is a "defeated foe" by the shed blood of Calvary" when Jesus said it is finished it is finished" IMO and not to be giving any glory or oppotunity to cause schisms within the body of believers. " Let us fix our eyes on the Lord and Saviour our Redeemer" again Shana this is my opinion; I feel that you are a strong believer and have a lot of faith " I don't feel that anyone will know the answers, lest the holy spirit gives them more than what he's already has.
God Bless You
I don`t believe anyone is saying that satan isn`t the adversary and that we shouldn`t fix our eyes on Jesus..quite the contrary. While I understand that some people do not really have a desire to dig deep into scripture and try to understand some of the topics that are talked about in the bible,others do. Some people just know Christ crucified and that have no desire beyond that to inquire anything else about biblical topics. I know a lot of people like that. That`s fine because Jesus`s death, resurrection ,and atonement for our sins is the most important thing. But this is a message board,is it not? Others post ideas and thoughts they have about certain subjects and we learn by getting other`s feedback and knowledge that they may have learned along the way on that particular subject. Not every topic is for everyone. Not every topic do we have an interest in. So if a topic that is posted isn`t something that you care about then why bother posting a reply? I believe Shana just put this out there to be discussed by Christians who may have wondered or thought about the same thing. I know it has triggered my interest and as a result I want to study and pray more about it. With love...
Oopsie Shana, so sorry sis. When i first saw your name i was not wearing my glasses. And just you know I think this is a great subject as a whole, and the possible interpretations you have presented are very much worth considering, and my mind is open to ideas. I dont know everything, none of us do, hence we seek the truth. btw - Its interesting, now that you share your thoughts on the beginning and end, that in Tanakh, the book of Bere**** or Genesis verse 1 in hebrew goes like this - Bere**** Bara ELohim et, translating it to english it goes like this - In the beginning God created et. Now et can not be translated to english. It indicates that a definite direct object is next, thus the needs to be an et before the heaven and earth are created. Now et is spelled in Aleph Tav. aleph tav in greek is alpha omega. Hence my interpretation of genesis 1:1 would go like this - In the beginning God created the beginning and end.. ..- interesting hey? just another one of those possibities, nothing to my head the block for though, just sharing.
Oopsie Shana, so sorry sis. When i first saw your name i was not wearing my glasses. And just you know I think this is a great subject as a whole, and the possible interpretations you have presented are very much worth considering, and my mind is open to ideas. I dont know everything, none of us do, hence we seek the truth. btw - Its interesting, now that you share your thoughts on the beginning and end, that in Tanakh, the book of Bere**** or Genesis verse 1 in hebrew goes like this - Bere**** Bara ELohim et, translating it to english it goes like this - In the beginning God created et. Now et can not be translated to english. It indicates that a definite direct object is next, thus the needs to be an et before the heaven and earth are created. Now et is spelled in Aleph Tav. aleph tav in greek is alpha omega. Hence my interpretation of genesis 1:1 would go like this - In the beginning God created the beginning and end.. ..- interesting hey? just another one of those possibities, nothing to my head the block for though, just sharing
That's okay, Timothy, no problem What you are sharing is interesting and I would like to look into it further. If God sees beginning to end, then it follows that the end would also be in view and in reality from His perspective when He created the beginning. This also speaks to God's sovereignty to me. Just thinking. Do you have any links? Thanks and God bless you.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-04-2007 at 12:38 PM..
I believe Shana just put this out there to be discussed by Christians who may have wondered or thought about the same thing. I know it has triggered my interest and as a result I want to study and pray more about it.
Thanks spm62, exactly. I am glad that it was helpful to you God bless you.
Links? No sorry sis. I dont know if anyone has look at et or ath in this verse as a creation of the beginning and end before all else. Its only a possibility thats there in the bible. Only info I have is kabbalistic literature, with different objectives. what you can do, if you have a friend who can read hebrew, get him to show the verse in hebrew and show you et, then see the two letters that spell et. Now back to our intriguing subject here - on the perfect part. Now tell me what you think, was adam created perfect? before the fall was man created perfect or not?
Links? No sorry sis. I dont know if anyone has look at et or ath in this verse as a creation of the beginning and end before all else. Its only a possibility thats there in the bible. Only info I have is kabbalistic literature, with different objectives. what you can do, if you have a friend who can read hebrew, get him to show the verse in hebrew and show you et, then see the two letters that spell et. Now back to our intriguing subject here - on the perfect part. Now tell me what you think, was adam created perfect? before the fall was man created perfect or not?
Okay, thanks Timothy, I will see what I can find. Adam? I think that he was created perfect for God's plan but I don't think that he was created perfect in the sense that most think. If he had been (imo) he would not have made the wrong choice to disobey God. He would have known better and he would have done the right thing like Jesus did, I think that God intended for him to disobey Him. The crafty serpent was put in the garden by God too as was the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. And God sees beginning to end. Adam had a lot to learn about God... What do you believe about it? God bless.
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