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I don`t believe anyone is saying that satan isn`t the adversary and that we shouldn`t fix our eyes on Jesus..quite the contrary. While I understand that some people do not really have a desire to dig deep into scripture and try to understand some of the topics that are talked about in the bible,others do. Some people just know Christ crucified and that have no desire beyond that to inquire anything else about biblical topics. I know a lot of people like that. That`s fine because Jesus`s death, resurrection ,and atonement for our sins is the most important thing. But this is a message board,is it not? Others post ideas and thoughts they have about certain subjects and we learn by getting other`s feedback and knowledge that they may have learned along the way on that particular subject. Not every topic is for everyone. Not every topic do we have an interest in. So if a topic that is posted isn`t something that you care about then why bother posting a reply? I believe Shana just put this out there to be discussed by Christians who may have wondered or thought about the same thing. I know it has triggered my interest and as a result I want to study and pray more about it. With love...
Shana is my sister in Christ Jesus;
Just expressing my thoughts;
God Bless You
Shana is my sister in Christ Jesus;
Just expressing my thoughts;
God Bless You
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These are very wise sayings kaykay and rjcarson;
The words are well put; I was in a hurry this AM; but I'm afraid that when we try to figure God out "what He was thinking; doing; why; why; why;. Is where one can get into serious trouble. This has been on my heart for a couple of threads that question God's intentions.
Today, 08:56 AM
kaykay
A Pilgrim, 1 Peter 2:11
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Originally Posted by rjcarson View Post
I agree with AT9 I think that when we start to try to understand why God does what he does that is when we start to get into trouble. There is no way we can wrap our minds around God and who he is. God is AWESOME He sees and knows all. We can only see what is going on in the infantessimal little space that we inhabit.
Lot of wisdom right here! We can speculate about God, but trying to "figure" Him out with our puny little perspective is often futile. Good post, rjcarson. In the Bible, God gives us some revelation about Himself but rarely explanation.
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Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 11-04-2007 at 05:29 PM..
Timothy, I hope that you are interested in continuing the discussion. I believe that Paul encourages us to grow in the knowledge of God (Colossians 1:9) and like spm62 says we can learn by what we share with each other. I think that the message boards can be a place to learn and grow as we stay within the guidelines of the forums. If we disagree with someone we can do that and still have a spirit of love. I am thankful for the insights that other Christians have shared with me as they have grown in their walk with the Lord even if I may not understand where they are coming from at times or may not see their perspective and vice versa. I believe personally that any discussion of God's sovereignty can only lift up the name of God, because I do believe that we all seek to glorify Him if we are believers. This is why I love to discuss the the sovereignty of God. Thanks and God bless you.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-04-2007 at 05:38 PM..
Reason: clarification
Shana, sorry for the slow response, ofcourse I am interested in continuing the discussion, its just that last night after gym the roller coaster ride started, as always, things just get crazy till Friday afternoon - no rest for the wicked. Anyway back to the perfect part, this is a hard one. Your response is very hard to digest, I have always maintained the view that God is perfect and that everything He does is perfect, even if we, out of our very own choice, decide to defy HIM. Besides that, the remification of saying God deliberately creates evil -, not allowes, but creates evil so that we who are created innocent may suffer so that at end we may grow in him, - implies that God is not Holy, for His actions are not always Holy - He every now and again creates evil for the greater good. btw when i refer to evil i do not mean righteous form of it, eg judgment, or when he sends evil to those who are evil, that is different. In my little wisdom end justifying the means does not do. There are many angles to this theory you have presented, it requires alot studing, meditation and prayer. And you have a good case, that calls one to think deeply about the nature of God in more than one way. Heres anothere one - what is evil? is evil someone or something? i think, and maybe we will both agree, evil is something. but i am also playing with the idea that evil in essence is abstract and is not an entity, it has no life, of its own or what so ever, niether does it have power of its own. only once it is born by a living being does it become more than what it is - a nothing. having said that, based on this little idea to say pure evil comes from god is not neccessary, as evil on its own is nothing. now in my mind god gives abilities and free will to some of his creation, what we do with these doesnt have to be a reflection on his character, but what be would a reflection on his character is him allowing evil to be born by his creation. i think i am going on too much, sorry, i am actually speaking my thoughts, and i never stop thinking. evil created and evil allowed may reflect two different views about the person who creates and the person who allows evil. for example if you have a kid who persists on doing wrong inspite reproof, you may allow the wrong to happen so that they may learn, and also because theres only so much, and only for so long, you can do as a parent. now that doesnt mean that the doing wrong things comes from you as a parent. okay i think i should stop now, or i will never stop, lol.
Shana, sorry for the slow response, ofcourse I am interested in continuing the discussion, its just that last night after gym the roller coaster ride started, as always, things just get crazy till Friday afternoon - no rest for the wicked.
Sounds like fun !
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Anyway back to the perfect part, this is a hard one. Your response is very hard to digest, I have always maintained the view that God is perfect and that everything He does is perfect, even if we, out of our very own choice, decide to defy HIM. Besides that, the remification of saying God deliberately creates evil -, not allowes, but creates evil so that we who are created innocent may suffer so that at end we may grow in him, - implies that God is not Holy, for His actions are not always Holy - He every now and again creates evil for the greater good. btw when i refer to evil i do not mean righteous form of it, eg judgment, or when he sends evil to those who are evil, that is different. In my little wisdom end justifying the means does not do.
Timothy, I realize that it is hard to digest for some and I appreciate you taking the time out to respond. I would like to share some of the reasons why I believe that everything is out of God, even evil. But I just wanted to say that believing that God created an imperfect universe for a reason (meaning imperfect in the sense that we usually think) does not mean that God Himself is imperfect. I believe that everything that God created was perfect for His plan. I believe that He had a goal to make man in His image and I believe that Adam (man from the earth) was not the "final product", if that makes sense. If Adam was perfect I don't believe that he would have sinned against God. He would have known better.
Here are some scriptures which I believe point to the view that God created all things, including evil. I think that this has also been discussed on another thread.
“"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace , and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).
Evil=ra: bad, wicked, evil, injurious, hurtful, unpleasant, mischief, misfortune, adversity, calamity, the opposite of good (noun)/comes from the verb “ra a” some meanings are to spoil by breaking to pieces, to break, to make something good for nothing, to afflict, to dash into pieces, to shatter, to destroy, to perish,
“For of Him and through Him and to Him, are all things…” Romans 11:36
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.” Colossians 1: 16
This teaches me that everything is out of God.But it is not a popular position. Does this mean that God Himself is evil? This may be a poor analogy but would we say that someone who writes a murder mystery is a murderer? God is Holy and Righteous, Jesus said that no one is good except God alone. So this does not mean that God Himself is evil even if He purposed to bring evil into existence for a reason. God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. When I think about this I think about the fact that the tree contained both good and evil and so as many have shared, how can we really know what is good and even how to be good or how to do the right thing, unless we know what is evil or wrong is? Remember that old saying, how can we appreciate the sunshine without the rain? Who put the crafty serpent in the garden? Didn’t God know what would happen? [/SIZE]
I think about this- If everything was created perfect-the creation, Adam, Eve, everything, then how did evil enter a perfect creation? Did God make a mistake? Didn’t He know what would happen? Did the evil catch Him unaware? Did He know that Adam and Eve would make the wrong choice and sin? Wouldn’t He have known this when created them? And if He did, why did He allow it to happen? Wouldn’t He be able to foresee the horrible consequences that would come about as a result? He sees beginning to end. The majority of the human race will supposedly burn in hell for all of eternity as a result. And this the result of a perfect creation…a perfect man who made an imperfect decision or imperfect choice. How could an perfect man make an imperfect choice? And if a a perfect man made an imperfect choice did God make a mistake?
Is God wrong to allow us to suffer for a higher purpose? Jesus, God’s own Beloved Son, had to suffer and it was God’s will for Him to suffer. Jesus was innocent but what happened was for His benefit, right? It was also for our benefit. It was a terrible thing, the evil done to Him was terrible, but it was all according to the predetermined plan of God according to Acts 2:23. And what happened as a result? Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him! Isn’t that glorious? Evil was used to bring about good and all according to the plan of God. So I don’t agree that the introduction of evil into the world means that God Himself is imperfect or unholy. My belief is and many believe that God knows exactly what He is doing and it is for the benefit of the creation.
“18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope (expectation); 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.”
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There are many angles to this theory you have presented, it requires alot studing, meditation and prayer. And you have a good case, that calls one to think deeply about the nature of God in more than one way. Heres anothere one - what is evil? is evil someone or something? i think, and maybe we will both agree, evil is something. but i am also playing with the idea that evil in essence is abstract and is not an entity, it has no life, of its own or what so ever, niether does it have power of its own. only once it is born by a living being does it become more than what it is - a nothing. having said that, based on this little idea to say pure evil comes from god is not neccessary, as evil on its own is nothing. now in my mind god gives abilities and free will to some of his creation, what we do with these doesnt have to be a reflection on his character, but what be would a reflection on his character is him allowing evil to be born by his creation. i think i am going on too much, sorry, i am actually speaking my thoughts, and i never stop thinking. evil created and evil allowed may reflect two different views about the person who creates and the person who allows evil. for example if you have a kid who persists on doing wrong inspite reproof, you may allow the wrong to happen so that they may learn, and also because theres only so much, and only for so long, you can do as a parent. now that doesnt mean that the doing wrong things comes from you as a parent. okay i think i should stop now, or i will never stop, lol.
I think that I hear what you are saying Timothy, that evil only comes into being the free will of man? If Adam had free will, he brought into existence when he disobeyed or made the wrong choice. God allowed Adam to do the wrong thing, so this puts the responsibility on Adam and not God? But then again when I think about this aside from the scriptures given above, didn’t God know what Adam would do? If He did, then didn’t He in fact bring the evil into existence by the pure fact that He brought Adam into existence? I am also thinking of who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and who created the crafty serpent. The crafty serpent had some responsibility I believe because God punishes it for what it did. But who made the crafty serpent? So it all goes back to God, to me. I think I see what you mean by the parent analogy but the difference to me is that God created the child who is doing the wrong things and knew what the child would do when He created the child. I think evil is a power. Paul speaks about forces of wickedness. (Ephesians 6:12) and of the power of sin. (Romans 7)
Thank you again for sharing. It helps me to see other perspectives on this and it helps me in my Bible studies. I hope that what I have shared shows why I believe the way I do. Have a blessed night.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-05-2007 at 08:39 PM..
i like it when you use scripture to make a point, its working. now we saying god created evil, okay. your convincing me. now does that have to mean that satan was created an evil being from the start? is it not possible that he, even though god allowed it, was victim of his bad choices, like us? and dont go the beginning route, unless you have more evidence what beginning the bible refers to. will it very wrong to play with this idea?
Hi Timothy, I can respond just a little right now but I will try to be back on later this afternoon. Thanks again for your feedback. In considering what you have shared, I don’t see any scriptures that say that satan was created perfect but I do read scriptures which say that he was a sinner or murderer from the beginning. As you have shared, there is a problem with the words “the beginning” for some. but others don't see a problem considering the immediate context of the passages in John when Jesus is speaking about satan. I believe that in the original language the article, “the” is not used so it would read that he was a murderer or man killer from beginning I will do some more reading up on this. I don’t know of any scripture which associates satan with goodness or perfection but he is associated with deception, evil, murder, lies, in the scriptures and he is called the accuser. Paul speaks of the crafty serpent being deceptive and this is associated with satan. Evil is associated with him in the scriptures. Even if we believe that he was once good or perfect and became evil through wrong choices, if God sees beginning to end, then he brought this into existence when He created satan. The scriptures do speak of God being the source of all things so if God planned to create satan as an evil force or being for His purposes, I don’t see how this would not be supported scripturally. . I know that we disagree on this but thanks again for sharing. I will try to get back on a little later. Have a blessed day.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-06-2007 at 11:18 AM..
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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What does Satan mean in Hebrew?
The adversary.
Disclaimer, all the following text is just a humble view, it is not the absolute truth and it wasn't intended to disrespect anyone
Satan was created as a being with creational powers, his task was to create the physical plane and then merge again into the cosmic consciousness of God, but he grew attached to his "creation" and he created a plan to preserve it as long as possible.
What he did was to tempt Adan and Eve to misuse their creative powers to manifest themselves into a physical body to unite in sexual intercourse, they fell in his trap and became enslaved to the flesh and the physical plane, he created lies, delusion and deception to make us (God's children) forget about our divine origin and be trapped here.
His weapon of choice is the satanic energy, vibrations with the power of repulsion, these create divisions, hatred and disonance.
God could have vanished satan with a mere wish, but being a children of him (fallen but his children after all) he decided to respect his free will.
God uses the spiritual energy to fight him, spiritual vibrations have the power of attraction, they create bonds, union and harmony.
That's what Christ did to fight satan, if he had wanted, God could have sent an army of angels to free him from crucifiction but he chose to die for our sins instead.
Hi Timothy, I did find that in my Interlinear Greek/English New Testament, the article [the] has been added in both 1 John 3:8 and John 8:44. They read without the article.
"He that practices sin of the devil is, because from beginning, the devil sins. for this was manifested the Son of God, that He might undo the works of the devil" 1 John 3:8
To compare, "the" in front of devil is not added and the "the" in front of Son of God was not added and the "the" in front of works wa not added.
"He was a murderer from beginning. and in the truth not has stood, because there was not truth in him." John 8:44
The article "the" in front of truth was not added.
"He was a murderer from beginning. and in the truth not has stood, because there was not truth in him." John 8:44
In the beginning there was no one Satan could murder, except the truth.
So every time you lie you murder the truth.
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