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"And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, And was called Perdition for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ— Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about." D&C 76: 25-29
Did someone claim that quote to be from the Bible? I provided a lot of references in the King James version of the Bible that demonstrate the existence of Satan. As I see it, most of those verses are referring to a real being and not to something within us as apparently you think Satan is.
But whatever, it is my belief that no human can be tempted beyond their ability to resist. If we could be, then God could not judge us righteously for we would have been forced to do evil. (Though it gets easier and easier to ignore and eventually sear our conscience the more often we give in to sinful behavior.)
Temptation and sin are not one and the same. Urges to sin are all around us and in our carnal nature, but we CAN choose to not give in. (It makes it much easier to keep God's commandments when we develop the habit of IGNORING temptation rather than allowing it to play in the theater of our mind.)
And when we fall, Heavenly Father has provided the way of speedy and sincere repentance and forsaking of the sin to get us back on the pathway HOME.
The battle for the souls of each one of us is fierce, perhaps particularly so in these final days of this world when Satan knows that his time is short and he will soon be locked up for a thousand years. The worth of a single soul is great in the eyes of God. We are each a well-loved son or daughter...
Last edited by justamere10; 01-05-2010 at 10:19 AM..
No, Satan was never a holy angel, never a cherub. Satan is the opposer, the slanderer, who was created to try/tempt/test angels and men, according to ancient writings like 1 Enoch and Jasher, besides the OT and NT and the book of Jubilees and writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Satan is a created evil spirit, created in heaven, and the head of the created evil spirits in heaven who do his will in trying/tempting/testing holy angels and men.
In the end, his place is the lake of fire, and all his victims who believed his lies instead of YHWH's Truth [Jesus Christ is the Truth] are cast there, where they will be tormented forever, as his "food" and eternal reward.
1 Enoch was known and read before the flood and after the flood, and was never lost, but though it was banned by Rome almost four hundred years after the NT Church was founded, it was never banned by the Jewish Ethiopians when they accepted Jesus as Christ, their Saviour/Messiah, and were joined to the NT Church of Chris [by second birth of Spirit], in its beginnings. It remained in their "list" ["canon" means list] of sacred books [Bible means books] throughout the church age, as did the Book of Jubilees, which was also called "Sacred Writing/Scripture" by the Essene community . It was used as a study book, "a Sacred Writing" by the Jewish community of the sons of Zadok [the Essenes], as the many fragments of 1 Enoch found in the caves of Qumran - the Dead Sea Scrolls- testify.
Because these books were known and used by the ancient Jews, their writings also show that they believed that there were many satans [evil spirits in heaven], and one chief Satan, as those two books, 1 Enoch and Jubilees, also teach.
open this page in Mozilla Firefox The Book of Enoch and in the edit button, hit "find", and in the "find/search" box which opens in the toolbar at the bottom; search the word "satan", and you will find the foundation for the doctrine the Jews believed, and which all the prophets of God who wrote the OT believed, and which also all men on earth, who once knew the truth believed, for the writings of 1 Enoch came through the flood with Noah, for all the descendants of Enoch, to be the foundational book for all the doctrines which are thereafter referred to in the OT and NT, but which are not laid again as foundations there, for they are already laid in the revelations given to Enoch, which he wrote for "all his descendants to read".
Also, in Jubilees there is the report that after the flood, the demons who were doomed to roam earth as disembodied evil spirits on earth, subject to satan -as pr 1 Enoch], they were afflicting the sons of Noah's sons and grandsons and so on, that they came to Naoh and asked him to intercede to the LORD for them, that he might bind them in Sheol below as he did the fallen Watchers who sinned. The LORD responded to Noah's intercession favorably, but the chief of the satans, called Mastema, in Jubilees, asked that they not all be bound in Sheol because then he could not do his job of tempting men on earth as well. The tempting is done by the evil spirits who dwell on earth and the satans, who dwell in the heavens, but done so as to try the sons of men and angels to see who will be found faithful. Rejects are cast aways, in the end, in the lake of fire, as rewards for the Satans. Those who are tempted and who come through the temptations of the evil satans and the disembodied demons come through as "pure gold" and receive their rewards for eternity and dwell forever in God's regenerated heavens and earth.
Quote:
1 Enoch 15
[Chapter 15]
1 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous 2 man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you:
Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.
8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.
[As for the spirits [satans] of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
More, later, on what happened as pr the evil spirits on earth and in heaven, as reported in the Jewish Book of Jubilees
The KJV followed Jerome's lead from the Vulgate - an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin from Greek (note: NOT from the original Hebrew). In Jerome's translation - "Lucifer" occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
Consider what these verses are actually saying:
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
They jump from the subject previously defined (that being Tyre) to a literalistic definition of a guardian cherub. They think the answer must be "It's Satan". But then the literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse:
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
It no longer works to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. In context it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. There are no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is only a result of the reader inserting their preconceived ideas into the verse.
The chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth (in both Isaiah and Ezekiel) are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with the same kind of poetic language. For instance:
Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)
Now maybe one could read these verses and say that again we have a reference to Satan. But that kind of creative exegesis would just lead to other problems - such as who are those which envy the mighty tree in Eden.
Now when the above information is presented someone may say "yes the prophecy is about Babylon or Tyre but it is also about the power which is behind their kingdoms, and that is Satan". But should we ignore all we know about Biblical interpretation so that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
Some supporters of the Lucifer myth point these verses in Isaiah 14:
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
The king of Tyre could not have been in the garden of Eden.satan was in the garden of Eden.
If you do not understand that the Lord God is describing satan in Ezekiel 28:11-19 then I question how much you really understand about the Bible.
The king of Tyre could not have been in the garden of Eden.satan was in the garden of Eden.
If you do not understand that the Lord God is describing satan in Ezekiel 28:11-19 then I question how much you really understand about the Bible.
Satan was, and is still, an evil spirit in heaven. Why do you say he was in the Garden of Eden?
the fallen cherub of Ezek 28:14-15 is not the serif of Genesis 3, either.
Serifim and cherubim are two different types of created angels.
Also, in ancient Jewish writings and in 1 Enoch, Eden is a "mountain" where Zion of the heavenlies is, where Watcher angels dwell, and where Adam was placed, and got cast out from, to earth.
The serif and the cherub have no relation to the satans.
Satan was, and is still, an evil spirit in heaven. Why do you say he was in the Garden of Eden?
the fallen cherub of Ezek 28:14-15 is not the serif of Genesis 3, either.
Serifim and cherubim are two different types of created angels.
Also, in ancient Jewish writings and in 1 Enoch, Eden is a "mountain" where Zion of the heavenlies is, where Watcher angels dwell, and where Adam was placed, and got cast out from, to earth.
The serif and the cherub have no relation to the satans.
Because Ezekiel 28:13 states that he was in the garden of Eden.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 makes it clear that satan appeared as an angelic man in the garden of Eden.He was the most beautiful in appearance and his voice was outstanding.
The apostle Paul also makes it clear satan can transform himself into an ANGEL of light. [2 COR 11:14 ]
satan is not just an evil spirit but also a fallen cherub[angelic man] and can appear[TRANSFORM himself] as an angelic man with the truth.
In Job chapters 1 & 2 satan has been walking to and fro on the earth.He has been walking as an angelic man with feet.
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that we have entertained angels and did not even know it.satan is a fallen angel and can appear as an ANGEL of Light.
Because Ezekiel 28:13 states that he was in the garden of Eden.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 makes it clear that satan appeared as an angelic man in the garden of Eden.He was the most beautiful in appearance and his voice was outstanding.
The apostle Paul also makes it clear satan can transform himself into an ANGEL of light. [2 COR 11:14 ]
satan is not just an evil spirit but also a fallen cherub[angelic man] and can appear[TRANSFORM himself] as an angelic man with the truth.
In Job chapters 1 & 2 satan has been walking to and fro on the earth.He has been walking as an angelic man with feet.
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that we have entertained angels and did not even know it.satan is a fallen angel and can appear as an ANGEL of Light.
Ezekiel 28:13 speaks of a Cherub in Eden, but it does not give a time frame for his rebellion, because, apparently, the matter is discussed in one of the many lost and/or hidden books which were lost at the burning of the temple and/or hidden by Ezra.
I personally think it has to do with the rebellion at Babel, because of many Scriptures in Isaiah, Genesis, and in Jasher. At any rate, the cherub is only one of many fallen angels who have and are fallen and are falling, by being tempted by the satans and becoming subject to them, as the Word of God teaches us about, and as 1 Enoch writes about.
Mount Eden was the Garden and Mountain of God from where Adam is cast out to earth from, but that Cherub may not be cast out yet, and Cherubim [plural for cherub] still guard the gate to Mount Eden.
That Cherub, a created holy angel, of Ezekiel 28, is not a serpent. Cherubim are described in Ezekiel 1, and are never, ever, described as serpents in Enoch or in the OT or in any other sacred ancient writings;
Quote:
Ezekiel chapter 1
4
And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, a great cloud, with a fire infolding itself, and a brightness round about it, and out of the midst thereof as it were glowing metal, out of the midst of the fire. 5
And out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. 6
And every one had four faces, and every one of them had four wings. 7
And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot; and they sparkled like burnished brass. 8
And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings [thus]: 9
their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10
As for the likeness of their faces, they had the face of a man; and they four had the face of a lion on the right side; and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four had also the face of an eagle. 11
And their faces and their wings were separate above; two [wings] of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
...
Ezekiel 10:
This [is] the living creature that Isaw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims. Eze 10:21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man [was] under their wings. Eze 10:22 And the likeness of their faces [was] the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.
Yes, Satan can "shapeshift" and by shapeshifting he can appear as many things, even as an "angel of light" to deceive the corrupt minds of men, but he is never called a son of God because he is not a creature made for the Light of the Glory to indwell, but for the darkness of the lake of fire.
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that we have entertained angels and did not even know it.satan is a fallen angel and can appear as an ANGEL of Light.
The author of Hebrews knows that many have entertained angels "unaware" because the ancient writings speak of it.
The book of Tobit speaks of the angel Raphael appearing as a man and assisting a young Israelite and his father. Tobit is part of the ancient collection of books that the Jews knew and read, and is included in the "second lists" of sacred writings in the eastern and Roman Church, and was included, in the Protestant Bibles until the late 1800's.
Three angels, one of whom was the " Messenger of YHWH/the pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ" came to dine with Abraham on while on their way to nuke Sodom.
Enoch wrote that the angels in heaven who are like "flaming fire" can appear as men.
Quote:
1 Enoch [Chapter 17]
1 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire, 2 and, when they wished, they appeared as men.
And in Judges;Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.
But Satan was never a holy angel, and is an evil spirit created in heaven, made to try, test, and tempt and deceive and accuse angels and men.
Concerning satans, their origin and purpose, and the chief satan, which are evil spirits in heaven, and demons, which are evil spirits in earth, from ancient writings:
1 Enoch:
Quote:
[Chapter 15]
1 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous 2 man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?
And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.
But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.
8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
The evil spirits in heaven are satans. The evil spirits on earth are demons, and all are subject to the chief Satan, who is never called a holy angel, ever, at any time.
So after the flood, when the disembodied evil spirits of the nephillim were rising up against the children of Adam's race, this happened, as recorded in Jubilees:
the Book of Jubilees
Quote:
[Chapter 10]
And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons began to lead astray the children of the sons of Noah, and to make to err and destroy them.
And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were leading astray and blinding and slaying his sons' sons.
And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said: 'God of the spirits of all flesh, who hast shown mercy unto me
And hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,
And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition;
For Thy grace has been great towards me,
And great has been Thy mercy to my soul;
Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,
And let not wicked spirits rule over them
Lest they should destroy them from the earth.
But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and Multiply and replenish the earth.
And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in order to destroy.
And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and for evermore.'
And the Lord our God bade us to bind all.
And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them harken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.'
And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation.'
And one of us He commanded that we should teach Noah all their medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness.
And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemnation and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan on the earth.
And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he might heal them with herbs of the earth.
And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil spirits were precluded from (hurting) the sons of Noah.
And he gave all that he had written to Shem, his eldest son; for he loved him exceedingly above all his sons.
And Noah slept with his fathers, and was buried on Mount Lubar in the land of Ararat.
Concerning satans, their origin and purpose, and the chief satan, which are evil spirits in heaven, and demons, which are evil spirits in earth, from ancient writings:
The evil spirits in heaven are satans. The evil spirits on earth are demons, and all are subject to the chief Satan, who is never called a holy angel, ever, at any time.
Continued-
In Enoch 54, the fallen watchers were chained in Sheol because they became subject to Satan in leading men astray:
Quote:
These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.
But there is a chief Satan, and his own "messengers" =evil spirits created as evil spirits in heaven for "testing", and accusing the fallen ones who become subject to them, so as to take them with them to the lake of fire.
Quote:
1 Enoch [Chapter 65]
1, 2 And in those days Noah saw the earth that it had sunk down and its destruction was nigh. And he arose from thence and went to the ends of the earth [to Mount Eden where Enoch was taken up to], and cried aloud to his grandfather Enoch: 3 and Noah said three times with an embittered voice: Hear me, hear me, hear me.' And I said unto him: ' Tell me what it is that is falling out on the earth that the earth is in such evil plight 4 and shaken, lest perchance I shall perish with it ? ' And thereupon there was a great commotion , on the earth, and a voice was heard from heaven, and I fell on my face.
And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: ' Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping 6 And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the Satans, and all their powers -the most secret ones- and all the power of those who practice sorcery, and the power of witchcraft, and the power of those who make molten images 7 for the whole earth:
The king of Tyre could not have been in the garden of Eden.satan was in the garden of Eden.
If you do not understand that the Lord God is describing satan in Ezekiel 28:11-19 then I question how much you really understand about the Bible.
Read my posts again. AISI you are trying to transform poetic/metaphoric depictions of real events into literal ethereal events. That doesn't really work... very well.
Tradition is a strong force. But not all powerful.
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