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Jesus' mother having been a virgin came from a erroneous translation of Is 7:14 which Matthew used. The word was not virgin (Greek Parthenos" but rather "almah' or young women (in Hebrew).
Matt:1:18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
Just why Mary had to remain virgin is unclear,
It was used as a sign ( virgin birth ) to know the one who should be born and how.
Isa:7:13: And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you
to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mt:1:23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matt:1:18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
It was used as a sign ( virgin birth ) to know the one who should be born and how.
Isa:7:13: And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you
to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mt:1:23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
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RESPONSE:
Perhaps this short writing from Religious Tolerance will explain it to you.
"As it happens, the Greek translators had made a mistake. When they were translating the Hebrew writings into the Greek Septuagint and similar translations, they converted the Hebrew word "almah" into the Greek equivalent of our English word for virgin. "Almah" appears nine other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means "young woman". When the Hebrew Scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word "betulah". 1 So, it appears certain that Isaiah referred to a young woman becoming pregnant -- a relatively ordinary event."
Questions:
Does Isaiah claim that this birth was in any way unusual?
Are you saying that God was the father of Emmanuel?
Was Emmanuel divine too?
Did he work any miracles or rise from the dead?
Why wasn't he called Jesus?
What purpose does the birth of Emmanuel have in the story of the two foreign powers exiting King Ahaf's land in the 8th century BC as prophesized by Isaiah?
The OT translation which Matthew used, the Greek Septuagint, mistranslated "almah" as the Greek word "parthenos" the word for virgin. Matthew's gospel itself uses "parthenos."
Of course, it is not unheard of for a virgin to conceive by her first intercourse. She would be a virgin up until that point. Ie "a virgin shall conceive"
You may also want to read: Fr. Raymond Brown, The Birth of the Messiah (New ed., 1999).
Last edited by ancient warrior; 12-28-2013 at 06:44 PM..
There is a verse that refutes Mary's perpetual virginity. Matthew 13:55-56: Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of his sisters with us?
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But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
LOL, Merry Christmas, Happy New Years and here we go with this again. To be certain, it is a purely Catholic dogma. Protestantism, Restorationism and any other newer Christianity rejects the doctrine of the immaculate conception as a matter of course. Why?
There is no scriptural basis for it. One must rely 100% on tradition and pseudepigraphical works for the entire thing. The more closely you examine the New Testament, the more contradictory the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity of Mary becomes.
There is no "has to" or "needs to be" or anything of the sort. God can do whatever God wants to do. Having a plain ole mortal virgin girl carry the Son of God (who is God in his own right) is something that God most certainly can do.
The entire reasoning comes about because of theological assumptions about original sin. Here, the early Church falls prey to the same trap that Arianism did. Arianism assumed as absolute and irrefutable truth the doctrine that the soul is created at the instant of conception. This forces Arianism to view Christ as a created being -- without end to be sure, but not without a beginning. The problem? The earliest Hebrews and Christians all believed that each of our spirits existed prior to birth and prior to the creation of the universe and the earth. Long story short, the entire debate between Trinitarianism vs Arianism was most likely based on the acceptance of an absolute truth that wasn't even truth at all: The doctrine of the each of our spirits spontaneously comes into existence at conception, but did not exist prior to that.
Now if we just assume that original sin is even a valid doctrine (very questionable) then you either accept that God can exempt an unborn child from it or he cannot. If he can then the immaculate conception theology is unnecessary. If Mary had to be a pure vessel to carry Jesus, then Mary's mother would need to be a pure vessel to carry Mary. And logically, this takes you to the previous generation, then the previous to that, all the way back to Eve. Since we know for certain that Mary is a descendant of Eve, then an impure vessel must of necessity enter the equation somewhere. So now what? Fabricate a new doctrine saying that Mary was not descended from Eve? That she was a new creation who was never born to any mother? I suppose you could, but this flies in the face of the entire notion that the Messiah must come through the line of David. If David is in no way an ancestor of Jesus, then why would Matthew waste all that effort to demonstrate the Davidic line?
It's just simpler to accept that God can do his work through an impure vessel named Mary. Personally, I do not accept original sin as a valid doctrine. It quite blatantly contradicts ancient pre-Christian Judaism. But even if I am wrong and original sin is truth, God can do his work. He does not need one perfect human being in order to shield the Son of God from stain. God can do it all in one shot. It is nonsense to postulate that God cannot do this thing or that. God can do whatever God wants to do and he does not need our permission for it.
Mary is by no means unremarkable. She is a woman of surpassing faith and integrity. She deserves our utmost gratitude, respect and admiration. Catholicism just simply takes it too far. They seek to take a regular mortal woman -- possible the greatest woman in human history, but mortal just the same -- and elevate her to demigod status. They do the same with saints. I think the real reason is because people felt an overriding need to have some sort of female deity character of some kind. It's a carryover from pagan polytheism for certain. It's also quite logical. If God created man and woman in his image then who is the template for the creation of woman?? It would have been far more scriptural if the early Church had maintained their belief in Sofia -- the Mother God/female aspect of God accepted by many of the earliest Christians. I strongly suspect that Sophia is in fact quite real. The "created in our image" bit in Genesis doesn't make any sense otherwise. But instead, belief in Sophia was tossed in the garbage can called "heresy" and Christianity was left without any female figure for their worship and devotion. That deep-seated human need for a female figure of worship and devotion was a vacuum. The vacuum was later filled by the mostly invented and constantly expanding theology of Mary.
Dude:
It is religion and not all religions are identical.
And no religion is better than the other.
Protestants pick and choose what to believe. Don't forget that! Nothing wrong by having differences between Catholicism and Protestants. In fact, there are many differences among the different Protestant sects.
I bet if Mary was alive today and saw how she was venerated in Roman Catholicism she would gasp in horror. It is so sad to see so many deceived into believing a lie.
It is quite obvious you have never been to mass.
Mary is not God and the mass is about Jesus. I suggest you attend mass.
Joseph did not have sex with her while she was pregnant which is very easy to do for a young man. Pregnancy is not a contraindication for sex.
Catholic scholars say all the brothers of Jesus were step brothers. None of them cared for Mary after Jesus was crucified. That is extremely weird for biological sons.
But, as I said: These are just differences among catholicism and Protestants and it is not big deal.
Catholic scholars say all the brothers of Jesus were step brothers. None of them cared for Mary after Jesus was crucified. That is extremely weird for biological sons.
catholic scholars say it, but the Bible does not say it. That's the problem.
The Bible says Joseph did not have sex with Mary until she gave birth to Jesus, so she was a virgin up to that point.
catholic scholars say it, but the Bible does not say it. That's the problem.
The Bible says Joseph did not have sex with Mary until she gave birth to Jesus, so she was a virgin up to that point.
Neither does the Bible clearly state that Jesus had blood siblings.
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