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What you FAIL to understand is just because I do NOT subscribe to your interpretation, then that does not mean that I don't "like what Jesus said". It just means that I don't subscribe to YOUR interpretation.
The irony is that it is those who condemn others, those who preach of eternal torment, that will be "condemned". But this "condemnation" is NOT eternal torment. or hell. It is ANNIHILATION. Annihilation of OLD, WRONG ideas about God. THAT is the only thing that is being "annihilated." We are ALL being refined. What is false, will be destroyed. What is truth, will survive. I put 100% faith in God to refine out of ME what needs to be refined. And I have 100% faith in God to do this for ALL of humanity. We are all brothers and sisters. We are not enemies, on one side or another. I do not see you as an enemy, twin. Do you see me as one? Just curious as to what your answer is, because I do not know.
Sparrow,
What seems to have gone by the way side is the second half of "It's not about grammar and you know it."
It's the bigger reason .... the attempting to have it both ways
I was going to not pursue it any further for it was going nowhere.
However, to have chessgeek congrat you ... of all people ... with the position of how dare anyone judge, I find reluctantly to address certain parts of this, not with any intentions of changing anyone's mind nor thinking I must have the last word.
Let me just address my over all impressions of the conversation throughout which reinforces my assessment of .... the attempting to have it both ways:
1) .... I find it that certain folks are conveniently position themselves of "condemning" those who are viewed as judging \ "condemning others" (this case atheists).
------------------------------------------------------------------
2) I get told that I'm guilty of judging yet:
........ I did not say that you were a liar ... that was you who judged that
........ I did not say that you were an enemy ..... that was you who judged that
........ I did not say that quoting Jesus is IMO interpretation .... that was you who judged that
........ I did not put words in your mouth by simply including three words ("oh, fyi \ yup") .... that was you who judged that
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) what I did do however was to remain firm to the principle that it is "attempting to have it both ways" when you stated:
"I never said or implied that I "don't like certain things that Jesus said".
but only to state later:
"I'm rejecting that which I do NOT believe. I don't believe in that picture of God. I believe it to be FALSE. Therefore, I reject it."
Well ... you can explain it away all day, but when you purposefully rephrase what Jesus said to:
"It is ANNIHILATION. Annihilation of OLD, WRONG ideas about God. THAT is the only thing that is being "annihilated."
is despite your emphatic otherwise ... you are declaring "I don't like certain things that Jesus said".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Do I see you as the enemy?
............. what kind of question is that? of course not.
............. does that mean we are "We are all brothers and sisters" ?
Answer: No.
What you have faith in what God will do to those who reject Jesus is not what Jesus said will occur.
And it will be shown that I'm quoting God correctly when he said:
I interepret scripture differently than you do. It does not mean that I "don't like what Jesus said".
It means that I interpret scripture differently than you do.
Here is a random example:
"Jesus destroyed his enemies"
Person A interprets that as meaning Jesus literally killed human beings.
Person B interprets that as meaning Jesus did NOT destroy human beings, rather He destroyed that which made them enemies in the first place: Ignorance and fear. Jesus destroyed his enemies by making them his friends.
Two completely different interpretations by two completely different human beings.
I'm glad that you do not see me as your enemy. That is why I asked. I did not accuse you or make a judgement like you said. I ASKED you the question because I like to AVOID ASSuming things where I can. I hope others in this forum will start to do the same.
For those that are so 100% certain that atheists are automatically sent to hell, please answer this. For those people who were seriously traumatized by abuse at the hands of a minister when they were children and as a result became atheist, agnostic, don't you believe God has the compassion and common sense to at least allow them into the kingdom (heaven)?
After all, the path they were on would likely have been totally different had they not been sexually molested.
I find the silence to my post #63 about the documentary about the church abuse scandals telling indeed. Unless by that silence, everyone agrees it has been a very serious matter for the church and we must have compassion and support the legal actions of those that have suffered. As a result, the last thing those in the church should be doing is condemning others to hell.
I am frankly shocked that so many continue to judge others much harsher than they would ever judge themselves. Some will judge an atheist all day long, but not say a word criticizing a pedophile minister. That is not a good message to send to those that are deciding whether to be Christians or not IMO.
Forgiveness and heaven for them. Condemnation for those that disagree. Don't think so. We have no right to dictate where God's mercy is directed. I am very comfortable leaving that decision to God and am a sensible and mature enough Christian to realize he will likely give it to others that don't have my exact views, too. We should be fine with that if we are truly sensible and accepting IMO.
You sir are no less showing yourself as .... the attempting to have it both ways.
It is not for you to judge and determine what is compassion and common sense for God
1) Exodus 33:19 And the Lord said, “.. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
2) Exodus 20:6-7
I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3) Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
You sir are no less showing yourself as .... the attempting to have it both ways.
It is not for you to judge and determine what is compassion and common sense for God
1) Exodus 33:19 And the Lord said, “.. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
2) Exodus 20:6-7
I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3) Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
The silence about post #63 for my part is simple .... sexual abuses \ coverup of the RCC it's not the topic of the OP.
It has nothing to do with having it both ways. I merely asked a question with the words "compassion" and "common sense" in it? I did not know there was a rule forbidding their use in a question. There was no direct answer from you, except quoting some additional scripture. I'll assume you are answering "I don't know".
Ministers mention concepts like compassion, common sense, mercy, forgiveness and others all the time. They often put it in the form of a statement, too. Do you get up and object that they are determining or judging what common sense, compassion or those other traits are for God, too?
Psalms 119:64 "The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are all over his works". (This verse telling us that he is good to all leads me to believe that would include abused children who remain traumatized into adulthood. Not a leap of faith IMO to say that at all.).
If you don't object to the minister for discussing those concepts, it is hypocritical IMO to object here merely as a deflection/guilt tactic to avoid the question. Just say you prefer not to answer. I can respect that.
Guilt attempt. Fail. These concepts are discussed ALL the time in Bible studies, sermons and casual conversations.
Post #63 is more relevant than you think. It is a known fact that some people that were abused have become atheists. For those victims that were Christians, but are now atheists, it is certainly a relevant topic for this thread.
What has no relevance to this thread is the tactic of presenting a cartoon of an elephant in an attempt to ridicule another poster that failed. As far as I am concerned, that type of tactic in a religion forum just because someone has the audacity to have a different opinion than you pretty much takes away any credibility you might have otherwise had. You do know some Bible verses. Will give you that. However, you certainly were not asking WWJD? when you posted the elephant cartoon to mock someone else.
God will decide who goes to heaven and hell. Not us. That is my belief and the Bible says so. Meanwhile, you can be pleased the poll shows those that believe as you do are leading 15-8 at this point. That is just a tiny fraction of all people on city data, though.
We agree to disagree.
Last edited by chessgeek; 06-21-2014 at 10:15 PM..
I suggest all of us read post #38 by baystater again. That was funny and we could certainly use some levity here! There is no point in me commenting much further as you all know where I stand. Thanks to all who participated. Unanimous agreement does not happen on these religious thread topics and at the end of the day we agree to disagree even if there were contentious points at times (and there usually will be when discussing religion).
Hope everyone has a nice Sunday!
Last edited by chessgeek; 06-21-2014 at 09:52 PM..
Originally posted by .sparrow.:
Here is a random example:
"Jesus destroyed his enemies"
Person A
interprets that as meaning Jesus literally killed human beings.
Person B
interprets that as meaning Jesus did NOT destroy human beings, rather He
destroyed that which made them enemies in the first place: Ignorance and fear.
Jesus destroyed his enemies by making them his friends.
Two completely
different interpretations by two completely different human beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
sparrow ... there is another way to understand your example:
"let scripture interpret scripture" "trust in the Lord and lean not on your own understanding"
Person B is leaning to the Holy Spirit for understanding:
- Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness
- 2 Cor 3:6 - He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Holy Spirit will always align with what God IS:
"Those who know love, know God for God IS love."
Love is:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
It has nothing to do with having it both ways. I merely asked a question with the words "compassion" and "common sense" in it? I did not know there was a rule forbidding their use in a question. There was no direct answer from you, except quoting some additional scripture. I'll assume you are answering "I don't know".
Ministers mention concepts like compassion, common sense, mercy, forgiveness and others all the time. They often put it in the form of a statement, too. Do you get up and object that they are determining or judging what common sense, compassion or those other traits are for God, too?
Psalms 119:64 "The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are all over his works". (This verse telling us that he is good to all leads me to believe that would include abused children who remain traumatized into adulthood. Not a leap of faith IMO to say that at all.).
Yes, you're wanting it to have it both ways
1) stereotype ministers ... course that isn't judging
2) Presuming ministers that I listen to are determining or judging what common sense, compassion God should have ... course that isn't judging
3) and since I must be hearing such messages, "it is hypocritical IMO" ... course that isn't judging
well, this is going to come as a surprise,
A: not every minister does
B: I don't have to get up when such things are not uttered
C: God doesn't kneel to the judging of the common sense of man.
Isaiah 55:8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
D: When you judge what is "compassion" and "common sense" upon God as how he should treat the clay... God doesn't take that too kindly
Job 1:1-4 The Lord said to Job:“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessgeek
If you don't object to the minister for discussing those concepts, it is hypocritical IMO to object here merely as a deflection/guilt tactic to avoid the question. Just say you prefer not to answer. I can respect that.
Guilt attempt. Fail. These concepts are discussed ALL the time in Bible studies, sermons and casual conversations.
Your IMO is what what earmarks the phrase "wanting it both ways"
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessgeek
Post #63 is more relevant than you think. It is a known fact that some people that were abused have become atheists. For those victims that were Christians, but are now atheists, it is certainly a relevant topic for this thread.
What has no relevance to this thread is the tactic of presenting a cartoon of an elephant in an attempt to ridicule another poster that failed. As far as I am concerned, that type of tactic in a religion forum just because someone has the audacity to have a different opinion than you pretty much takes away any credibility you might have otherwise had. You do know some Bible verses. Will give you that. However, you certainly were not asking WWJD? when you posted the elephant cartoon to mock someone else.
WWJD .... maybe he would draw in the sand of an elephant sitting on a atheist while somebody was seriously explaining that there was no force involved but sheer weight that got the atheist to bow his knee.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-22-2014 at 09:14 AM..
God will decide who goes to heaven and hell. Not us. That is my belief and the Bible says so. Meanwhile, you can be pleased the poll shows those that believe as you do are leading 15-8 at this point. That is just a tiny fraction of all people on city data, though.
We agree to disagree.
Your belief (as stated) is not in context what the Bible says
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 7:43
Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment"
the openly confessed atheist exposes their fruit from their own lips.
And we know that Jesus openly judged such a person John 3:36
Person B is leaning to the Holy Spirit for understanding:
- Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness
- 2 Cor 3:6 - He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Holy Spirit will always align with what God IS:
"Those who know love, know God for God IS love."
Love is:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
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