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That is untrue, Jeff. A Pastor friend is gay, he has been with his husband for over two decades. Approaching three. Almost thirty years. A lesbian couple I know, have been together since just after high school. I know all four of these people. I know them well. Both couples love one another very much, and are very devoted to one another. I am presently, and happily celibate as you well know. Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know why you keep saying stuff like this. I really don't. It's hurtful, and untrue. You know it's hurtful because I have told you, and yet you continue. Why? Why do you refuse to get to know LGBT people? Why cast aspersions on the the character of people yo do not know?
Your anecdotal evidence is not necessarily the norm. I've seen statistics that say otherwise. I mean nothing hateful or mean by that, but it's just how it is.
Don't tell that to "saint" or he will call you a Pharisee.
Yes, there are fruits of the Spirit, and there are works which stem from the Spirit, and there are also 'works of the flesh'.
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
I said earlier that God will be ultimate judge, but sometimes it becomes very obvious who is and isn't right with God.
I think Stmarks may agree too The thing about those two juxtaposed scripture passages (fruit of the Spirit vs. works of flesh) is that is all of us: a mixture of the fruits of the Spirit and the works of the flesh. Included in with "sorcery" and outrageous things that few of us are going out and doing are things like anger, which I just did this morning. And then after my moment of anger, displayed humility...and so it goes as I figure out this thing called patience.
I always thought that was an interesting list. Outrageous behaviors like orgies and sorcery beside the mundane things that plague us all, like anger and jealousy. And they are given equal footing! What does that tell you? Best not to judge, and to work out our own path, is what I say. We all have different levels of spiritual maturity, so some people just shine a bright light and all you see is the light so it's easy to know they are from God, most are just a mixture. But you can't say that "so and so is doing this "sin" so that is evidence they are not right with God." You just can't.
I know that Paul says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God' but you have to take that in context. This is MAIL that Paul was sending to churches. He was trying to shepherd new believers in a very chaotic cultural and spiritual milieu. That's like saying to your misbehaving teens who have just had a wild party and wrecked the house: "When your dad sees this he's going to kill you" but obviously you don't mean that. You just mean to send a sobering message.
Your anecdotal evidence is not necessarily the norm. I've seen statistics that say otherwise. I mean nothing hateful or mean by that, but it's just how it is.
Nonsense. Pharisees were Jewish, were certainly NOT defined by preaching grace, or anything close to it. Jesus said "go and sin no more", not the Pharisees. The words I quoted from Luke 13 where those of Jesus, not the Pharisees. Jesus never said to ignore sin, so you and Him are preaching very different messages.
A changed life is evidence of Christ in you, while life which continues to embrace sin is evidence of the opposite.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
I'll just say this for the 4th time and then leave you to twist someone else's words: Their FAITH was counted against them as righteousness. Same is true today.
Does Christ want you to sin no more? Yes. Please stop pretending both can't be true. We are saved by faith, but some are never saved at all. They reject it.
Your calling on homosexuals after they come to Christ to strive and seek a narrow way is the law of the Pharisees.
Christ knows we will continue to sin. The call to sin no more is a call to believe the same covenant given to a sinning boor like Lot. It is his righteousness that is imputed into us. Only by his righteousness is our sin no more. Our personal sin is washed away.
It is funny the story of Lot is brought up. Perfect example. Peter called him righteous. Just as you say, his belief was counted unto him as righteousness. Same here. And Lot offered his daughters up when the horde in Sodom wanted to not only rape the angels but himself. He offered up his own virginal daughters to save his own ass. Literally.
Ok, that was funny.
The same covenant is for the homosexual. The same faith saves them and continues to save them no matter what they do after. How is one of them having a partner and (supposedly, we only imagine what someone does in their bedroom, or better yet, why are we wondering what they do in their bedroom?) having consensual sexual experiences any worse than Lot getting drunk and having incest sex with his daughters? So why are you laying down a regimen for the homosexual that Peter isn't saying about Lot?
Your anecdotal evidence is not necessarily the norm. I've seen statistics that say otherwise. I mean nothing hateful or mean by that, but it's just how it is.
Well, you know the old quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
My anecdotal experience echoes geekigurl's. Most gay people I know, and that's quite a few, long for a steady partnership with someone they love, just like most straight people I know.
As has been discussed many times here, promiscuity among gay people is also influenced by the fact that long-term, monogamous relationships have not been an option for them unless they were willing to be shunned or in some cases have their professions derailed. Hopefully with more acceptance, the balances would tip in that regard.
I think Stmarks may agree too The thing about those two juxtaposed scripture passages (fruit of the Spirit vs. works of flesh) is that is all of us: a mixture of the fruits of the Spirit and the works of the flesh. Included in with "sorcery" and outrageous things that few of us are going out and doing are things like anger, which I just did this morning. And then after my moment of anger, displayed humility...and so it goes as I figure out this thing called patience.
I always thought that was an interesting list. Outrageous behaviors like orgies and sorcery beside the mundane things that plague us all, like anger and jealousy. And they are given equal footing! What does that tell you? Best not to judge, and to work out our own path, is what I say. We all have different levels of spiritual maturity, so some people just shine a bright light and all you see is the light so it's easy to know they are from God, most are just a mixture. But you can't say that "so and so is doing this "sin" so that is evidence they are not right with God." You just can't.
I know that Paul says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God' but you have to take that in context. This is MAIL that Paul was sending to churches. He was trying to shepherd new believers in a very chaotic cultural and spiritual milieu. That's like saying to your misbehaving teens who have just had a wild party and wrecked the house: "When your dad sees this he's going to kill you" but obviously you don't mean that. You just mean to send a sobering message.
I look at it this way. You see apples growing on a tree, you know it is an apple tree. The fruit identifies it.
So, what are the indentifying traits that others see in you? That is the evidence of fruit. Not saying you have fruit, that isn't enough. What is evident in your life that others would see? Do they see love? Patience? Self control? Kindness?
Or do they see sexual impurity? Anger? Jealousy? Etc, etc.
Do the homosexuals you know, is their fruit their sexuality? My long time friend I mentioned, the one I've prayed with and walked with and who has been the light to me on this subject.... he exhibits the kindness, the gentleness, the self control of the spirit in abundance. He's got a bumper crop of the spiritual fruit.
Does he display the fruits of the flesh? Does he display fruits of homosexuality? I've know him 30 plus years, I know his struggle with same sex attraction. I have yet to see the fruit of it. He hasn't one time done anything sexual to me. No fruit of it. Does not act slutty or inappropriate, does not make crude jokes that would make one uncomfortable, does not dress in a suggestive way, does not come on to me or any other man I've witnessed. He does not exhibit the fruit of sexual impropriety in any way.
Does that mean he has never been sexual in an improper way? By what he has told me, he has. But that is not the fruit of his life. He has been angry, jealous, all the other things just like I have been. But that is not the fruit of his life.
I have known people where the anger or the jealousy or the sexual impropriety is their fruit. Just like the apples on the tree, when you meet them, that is what you get. Anger. Jealousy. Sexuality.
To me that is what the lesson of the fruit is. What is evident in your life, what has your life produced by being in the spirit of God? What do others see when they see you?
Sum it up this way: Fruit is something that grows and develops and identifies who you are over a period of time. It takes an apple to first be a seed then a sprout then a sapling then a young tree before a bud ever develops. Then that bud has to survive frost and drought and other variances in the season to finally mature and be fruit.
This is not a list to condemn or say you have failed if you have ever done one of the bad things. That isn't fruit. That is falling from who you are. If you stay in that fallen state, yes fruit will follow. But I see this list as a mirror to hold up to one's self first and then to lovingly correct another that you might be in close relationship with if they trust you for advice and counsel. It is not a list to bludgeon another with. Far from it.
Your anecdotal evidence is not necessarily the norm. I've seen statistics that say otherwise. I mean nothing hateful or mean by that, but it's just how it is.
I'm not a statistic. Neither is anyone else. Not cis and straight folks, nor LGBT folks. We are people. Get to know us.
Well, you know the old quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
My anecdotal experience echoes geekigurl's. Most gay people I know, and that's quite a few, long for a steady partnership with someone they love, just like most straight people I know.
As has been discussed many times here, promiscuity among gay people is also influenced by the fact that long-term, monogamous relationships have not been an option for them unless they were willing to be shunned or in some cases have their professions derailed. Hopefully with more acceptance, the balances would tip in that regard.
I think Stmarks may agree too The thing about those two juxtaposed scripture passages (fruit of the Spirit vs. works of flesh) is that is all of us: a mixture of the fruits of the Spirit and the works of the flesh. Included in with "sorcery" and outrageous things that few of us are going out and doing are things like anger, which I just did this morning. And then after my moment of anger, displayed humility...and so it goes as I figure out this thing called patience.
I always thought that was an interesting list. Outrageous behaviors like orgies and sorcery beside the mundane things that plague us all, like anger and jealousy. And they are given equal footing! What does that tell you? Best not to judge, and to work out our own path, is what I say. We all have different levels of spiritual maturity, so some people just shine a bright light and all you see is the light so it's easy to know they are from God, most are just a mixture. But you can't say that "so and so is doing this "sin" so that is evidence they are not right with God." You just can't.
I know that Paul says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God' but you have to take that in context. This is MAIL that Paul was sending to churches. He was trying to shepherd new believers in a very chaotic cultural and spiritual milieu. That's like saying to your misbehaving teens who have just had a wild party and wrecked the house: "When your dad sees this he's going to kill you" but obviously you don't mean that. You just mean to send a sobering message.
I dunno, I was readng about cherubs, and they are not what is depicted usually (a baby with wings). It was a biped with two wings and four heads and shiny bull feet. Most definitely not something I would want to WooHoo with.
Those warrior type angels were mighty impressive methinks. The cherubs, nah.
Haha.
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The thing about those two juxtaposed scripture passages (fruit of the Spirit vs. works of flesh) is that is all of us: a mixture of the fruits of the Spirit and the works of the flesh. Included in with "sorcery" and outrageous things that few of us are going out and doing are things like anger, which I just did this morning. And then after my moment of anger, displayed humility...and so it goes as I figure out this thing called patience. 
