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The Penal Substitution Theory is fallacious, Mike. And, he has no reason to be vengeful, that is merely the ideologies of men. It's like a parasite that has been absorbed into the minds of (religious) men; and its existence is dependent upon maintaining, gullible and ignorant beliefs - all under the authority of those who required a national or amalgamated religion to solidity their control over the masses of the people. It's time people woke up to the truth, as we are not living in the first century - where they believed in demons, the devil or Satan.
No, penal substitution is not fallacious. That Jesus was our substitute is clearly taught in the scriptures. That not obeying the gospel (by believing in Christ) has a penalty (δίκη-penalty, punishment, execution of a sentence) is stated by the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Put the two together and you get penal substitution.
2 Thess. 1:9 They will suffer the penalty (δίκην) of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,
The very essence of eternal punishment is separation from the presence of the Lord.
As for demons and Satan, if they exist, and they do, their existence has nothing to do with what century it is. But that's for another thread.
Penal substitution is biblical no matter what your reasons are for denying it.
I suggest you take a look at the definition of ransom.
ran·som
/ˈransəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner.
"the kidnappers demanded a ransom"
Similar:
payoff
payment
price
verb obtain the release of (a prisoner) by making a payment demanded.
"the lord was captured in war and had to be ransomed"
In the bold, the prisoner was mankind!
The payment demanded was for the sin of mankind that man could not pay.
The demands for sin is blood of the man who sins.
Christ was that man, taking our place, therefore His sacrifice was the ransom of the people.
The HIGHEST culminating point or PINNACLE of man's religion is SIN and DEATH.
So, who was it that held MEN CAPTIVE, other than that of the religious hierarchy?
Who, by the way, were the one's demanding his death, while freeing a murderer.
It seems to me that it is the same people who demand that it be a blood sacrifice.
Proverbs 17:15
The one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the innocent; both of them are an abomination to the LORD.
Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest (righteous) person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
I suggest you take a look at the definition of ransom.
ran·som
/ˈransəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner.
"the kidnappers demanded a ransom"
Similar:
payoff
payment
price
verb obtain the release of (a prisoner) by making a payment demanded.
"the lord was captured in war and had to be ransomed"
In the bold, the prisoner was mankind!
The payment demanded was for the sin of mankind that man could not pay.
The demands for sin is blood of the man who sins.
Christ was that man, taking our place, therefore His sacrifice was the ransom of the people.
Sorry, Charlie. That is a sick and twisted misunderstanding of ransom to justify the ignorant beliefs of our ancestors that God is wrathful and vengeful and needed blood sacrifices to appease Him. Jesus exhibited no such wrath or vengeance despite the horrendous and brutal torture and murder inflicted on Him by our savage ancestors.
God is NOT of two minds or two natures, Charlie, and Jesus clearly and unambiguously revealed that God is neither wrathful nor vengeful. He is agape-loving and forgiving! So suck it up, Charlie, no matter how "wimpy," "Hippie," or "panty-waist" you think He is.
The HIGHEST culminating point or PINNACLE of man's religion is SIN and DEATH.
So, who was it that held MEN CAPTIVE, other than that of the religious hierarchy?
Who, by the way were the one's demanding his death, while freeing a murderer?
Jerwade, the captor that Christ released us from was Satan! But only those of mankind that accept His payment will benefit from it!
I've kinda been wondering if you have availed yourself to that payment?
Sorry, Charlie. That is a sick and twisted misunderstanding of ransom to justify the ignorant beliefs of our ancestors that God is wrathful and vengeful and needed blood sacrifices to appease Him. Jesus exhibited no such wrath or vengeance despite the horrendous and brutal torture and murder inflicted on Him by our savage ancestors.
God is NOT of two minds or two natures, Charlie, and Jesus clearly and unambiguously revealed that God is neither wrathful nor vengeful. He is agape-loving and forgiving! So suck it up, Charlie, no matter how "wimpy," "Hippie," or "panty-waist" you think He is.
You are completely and totally ignorant to the redemption our Lord has acquired for us through His death, burial, and resurrection.
This is why JBF and I are here, to proclaim the truth of the scripture!
But thank God the scripture says, as long as there is life there is hope.
You still have time to get it right, Mystic, how long none of us know!
I have no doubt it happened and that Jesus reacted to it the way that He did with agape love for even His torturers and murderers. I believe His achievement of perfect agape love in His HUMAN consciousness saved us all from permanent separation from God in OUR human consciousnesses.
I believe Jesus and God knew what they would do to Jesus was inevitable BECAUSE OF our ancestors' ignorance and "sin." I do NOT believe God demanded it as some kind of payment or punishment to appease His NON-EXISTENT wrath and vengeance for ANYTHING. Does that clear it up for you, Michael?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Regarding the bolded . . .your beliefs are wrong.
Mike do you not realize that God said in regards to making a sacrifice of the innocent that it never entered into His mind? The way you and so many others view God looks more like Moloch then the God Jesus told us all about.
Mike do you not realize that God said in regards to making a sacrifice of the innocent that it never entered into His mind? The way you and so many others view God looks more like Moloch then the God Jesus told us all about.
Another catastrophic misuse of scripture.
When God said, I desire mercy not sacrifice, He was referring to Israel replacing the mercy found in the sacrifice that represented Christ through His redemption of man, by replacing it as a mere ritual.
Mike do you not realize that God said in regards to making a sacrifice of the innocent that it never entered into His mind? The way you and so many others view God looks more like Moloch then the God Jesus told us all about.
I realize that you cherry pick. Jeremiah 32:35 concerned the Israelites sacrificing their children to Molek. That was what never entered the mind of God. On the other hand, Isaiah 53 is all about the suffering servant offering himself as a guilt offering and pouring himself out to death, bearing the sins of many and interceding for the transgressors. Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to himself.
It was God the Father's plan for Jesus to go to the cross upon which he was crucified in order to bear our sins in his own body. To deny that is to deny the true gospel.
The HIGHEST culminating point or PINNACLE of man's religion is SIN and DEATH.
So, who was it that held MEN CAPTIVE, other than that of the religious hierarchy?
Who, by the way, were the one's demanding his death, while freeing a murderer.
It seems to me that it is the same people who demand that it be a blood sacrifice.
Proverbs 17:15
The one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the innocent; both of them are an abomination to the LORD.
Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest (righteous) person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
Jerwade, the captor that Christ released us from was Satan! But only those of mankind that accept His payment will benefit from it!
I've kinda been wondering if you have availed yourself to that payment?
Charlie, there is no eternal punishment, no demons, devil or Satan. It's your own natural inclinations (or propensity) to behave in a particular way; right or wrong, good or evil. So, don't go playing the blame game or "it's the woman you gave me." The devil didn't do it, either!
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