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Your entire premise is flawed Michael....what many of us are trying to say is that God does not save anyone who does not trust in Him like you said but even yet while we were sinners, God reached out to us, not the other way around. He ENABLES that trust , He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith lest any man boast. You are simply boasting because you think the saved are the ones who figured it out. Jesus said ' You didn't choose me, I chose you" ... how did the disciples come into existence..did they query Jesus first? NO! He hand picked them. He hand picks us , not the other way around. He knows each man's heart. Not every fruit is ripe 100 % of the time either.
That's exactly why the OP started this thread . . .to bait for the purpose of confrontation.
Why must you ascribe cynical motives to my sincere and genuine consternation at the acceptance of utterly barbaric beliefs about God in the face of Jesus's clear and unambiguous demonstration of God's Holy Spirit of agape love? I genuinely do not know how you can conceivably reconcile what you believe about God's motives and what Jesus revealed about God's Holy Spirit. They do not compute!
You believe that only because you are a universalist. Again, God does not intend to save anyone who doesn't personally trust in Christ Jesus for eternal life.
Why on earth would our Father place any such condition especially about such a barbaric interpretation of a horrendously brutal scourging and crucifixion????
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And it seems that you are also a Calvinist since you believe that regeneration precedes faith. It does not. Faith is a result of believing the gospel message about Jesus. That faith is the means by which a person takes hold of the free gift of eternal life.
Calvinism is as wrong headed as Universalism. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved (regenerated) through faith . . .
From Paul's own mouth, faith precedes regeneration. Period.
Calvin was a wrongheaded and fairly evil man, IMO.
The hearing about the brutal and thoroughly unjust treatment of Jesus by our ignorant savage ancestors should and does evoke the agape love states of mind of mercy, compassion, etc., NOT sacrifice to appease the wrath of God! The agape love states of mind are what bring the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to us. THAT IS what leads to faith in Jesus and we demonstrate that faith as we try to emulate His agape love.
Your entire premise is flawed Michael....what many of us are trying to say is that God does not save anyone who does not trust in Him like you said but even yet while we were sinners, God reached out to us, not the other way around. He ENABLES that trust , He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith lest any man boast. You are simply boasting because you think the saved are the ones who figured it out. Jesus said ' You didn't choose me, I chose you" ... how did the disciples come into existence..did they query Jesus first? NO! He hand picked them. He hand picks us , not the other way around. He knows each man's heart. Not every fruit is ripe 100 % of the time either.
You don't understand what I'm saying. God does reach out to us. He does so through the gospel message. As a result of hearing the gospel message concerning Christ, and which the Holy Spirit makes understandable to the one hearing the gospel, a person will either be persuaded by the gospel and as a result come to faith in Christ, or he will not. If he responds in faith and trusts in Christ for eternal life then he is saved. If he is not persuaded by the gospel and does not therefore believe in Christ then he remains under condemnation.
God does not hand pick who will be saved. He desires that everyone be saved and that no one perish. But God saves only those who respond to the gospel message. All must come to Jesus for eternal life. The offer of salvation is given. That offer can either be accepted or refused. As Jesus told the Pharisees,
John 5:40 and you are not willing to come to Me, that you may have life.
They could have come to him but refused to believe his testimony about himself. Many other people did come to Christ for salvation in response to his message and his works.
Why must you ascribe cynical motives to my sincere and genuine consternation at the acceptance of utterly barbaric beliefs about God in the face of Jesus's clear and unambiguous demonstration of God's Holy Spirit of agape love? I genuinely do not know how you can conceivably reconcile what you believe about God's motives and what Jesus revealed about God's Holy Spirit. They do not compute!
You may be sincere about your beliefs but you are sincerely wrong. Perhaps you are not nearly as smart as you think you are. There is more to God than love.
You may be sincere about your beliefs but you are sincerely wrong. Perhaps you are not nearly as smart as you think you are. There is more to God than love.
According to Jesus, God IS agape love, Michael. It is a spiritual state of mind and God IS a Spirit. So God's Holy Spirit IS agape love as unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus. God cannot be motivated by anything that is incompatible with or the opposite of His Holy Spirit.
Where have all the loving Christians gone??
The forum seems to be dominated by fundamentalist wrath and vengeance Christians who as Ghandi said do not remotely resemble Jesus Christ. The militant atheists seem to be the only other consistent posters. The reduced traffic in the R&S forums may be related to that dominance of the extremes. Aren't there any other loving middle-of-the-roaders like JAA2310?
Do the majority of Christians believe in a wrathful and vengeful God despite the unambiguous demonstration of God's Holy Spirit of agape love by Jesus???? That just seems so oddly incongruous to me. The barbaric blood sacrifice meme is so completely primitive I am astounded it has held sway for so long. Are most people still really that barbaric-minded? That is such a depressing thought.
This used to be the "Christianity" forum, which unlike the R&S and Agnostic/Atheist forums, was a place where Christians could respectfully discuss Christian issues. But, it was overrun by Atheists and others whose primary messages are: "God is 'only' love" (with no justice); "The Bible is only an old book written by men and holds nothing for 'modern thinkers'"; and finally, "Christians are too narrow-minded and judgmental and should instead compromise in every area - so no one is offended."
Many Christians, including myself, grew weary of those who, instead of seeking God, persistently attacked Christians, the Bible and the sacrificial role of Jesus Christ, as being foolish. But, that's what the Bible states they would do: " The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. (1Cor 2:14)
The real irony of this thread ("Where have all the loving Christians gone?")is that you (MysticPhD) have been among the leaders of those consistently tearing down Biblical Christianity. It's abundantly clear that you, among about a dozen others, are only here to present your own baseless theology. It's also become clear to many Christians who used to regularly post here, that it's futile and pointless to raise-up the truth among those so strongly committed to promoting the lie/s.
According to Jesus, God IS agape love, Michael. It is a spiritual state of mind and God IS a Spirit. So God's Holy Spirit IS agape love as unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus. God cannot be motivated by anything that is incompatible with or the opposite of His Holy Spirit.
It's a sad day when someone will claim Christ, brag on the love and condemn the judgment.
That's how we know who is of God and who is not, a cherry picking false gospel, another Jesus.
According to Jesus, God IS agape love, Michael. It is a spiritual state of mind and God IS a Spirit. So God's Holy Spirit IS agape love as unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus. God cannot be motivated by anything that is incompatible with or the opposite of His Holy Spirit.
God's love cannot ignore his justice and righteousness. While God's love motivated God to send Jesus to the cross to die as our substitute, it was God's justice that made it necessary for Jesus to die as our substitute in order to provide salvation to fallen mankind. And it is God's justice that makes it necessary for God to leave under condemnation all who do not come to Jesus. God cannot and will not allow his love to compromise his integrity - his righteousness and justice. All of God's attributes must work together.
You don't understand what I'm saying. God does reach out to us. He does so through the gospel message. As a result of hearing the gospel message concerning Christ, and which the Holy Spirit makes understandable to the one hearing the gospel, a person will either be persuaded by the gospel and as a result come to faith in Christ, or he will not. If he responds in faith and trusts in Christ for eternal life then he is saved. If he is not persuaded by the gospel and does not therefore believe in Christ then he remains under condemnation.
God does not hand pick who will be saved. He desires that everyone be saved and that no one perish. But God saves only those who respond to the gospel message. All must come to Jesus for eternal life. The offer of salvation is given. That offer can either be accepted or refused.
I don't believe it's an offer of, "believe this, or else?"
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