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I am confused. Jesus was talking about his nemeses, the local religious leaders, in that passage, not Christian church leaders. He was playing a game there. He was telling them to do what they say to do according to the (Jewish) law, but not to do what they actually do.
There is a lot conveyed in these two verses.
Jesus was affirming that the despite the corruption of those sitting in Moses chair, what they taught had to be observed and practiced.
If the teaching of those in Moses chair was invalid - could Jesus have been able to fulfill it and offer a new covenant?
There is a lot conveyed in these two verses.
Jesus was affirming that the despite the corruption of those sitting in Moses chair, what they taught had to be observed and practiced.
If the teaching of those in Moses chair was invalid - could Jesus have been able to fulfill it and offer a new covenant?
OK, that is a different take from what is apparent there on the surface.
First of all, Jesus does not say what they are teaching is invalid. He is saying that they say one thing and do another. He does not further indicate that he is talking about a new covenant or the future church. It seems clear he is pointing them away from the current hypocrisy, especially when you go on to verses 3 and 4.
I am not sure how we get from what is says in that 2nd verse to what you say in your second sentence above. Can you tell us how you make that connection?
There is a lot conveyed in these two verses.
Jesus was affirming that the despite the corruption of those sitting in Moses chair, what they taught had to be observed and practiced.
If the teaching of those in Moses chair was invalid - could Jesus have been able to fulfill it and offer a new covenant?
::Sigh:: The Mosaic Laws had a PURPOSE. They were designed to produce human beings who were the kind of person Jesus eventually demonstrated to them. The laws had failed because they were superficially interpreted as OBEDIENCE to commands NOT the deeper principle about what kind of person they were supposed to be. The failure of the laws is why Jesus was necessary as a HUMAN to show them what the laws were supposed to produce.
Jesus had to grow up as they did and become the kind of human the laws were supposed to produce. That is how He fulfilled them and that is why God the Father was pleased with Him. He needed to BECOME AS A HUMAN what God wanted from humans, why else would God have been pleased with Him?
OK, that is a different take from what is apparent there on the surface.
First of all, Jesus does not say what they are teaching is invalid. He is saying that they say one thing and do another. He does not further indicate that he is talking about a new covenant or the future church. It seems clear he is pointing them away from the current hypocrisy, especially when you go on to verses 3 and 4.
I am not sure how we get from what is says in that 2nd verse to what you say in your second sentence above. Can you tell us how you make that connection?
The point being is that corruption in the hierarchy doesn't invalidate the teachings or offices that the Lord establishes. Jesus affirms this in Matthew 23:3
I brought this up as a counter to your statement in post#745 ; "It broke itself off when it got into bed with secular power structures and took on the practices of those power structures. It did make an effort to right itself after the Reformation, but it was too little too late."
The office, authority, and teaching our Lord establishes thru it stands by Jesus authority - and not by any that any man , as demonstrated in scripture by our Lord here (and at Isaiah 22).
Our Lord gave no authority to any so-called 'reformer' to terminate or change what HE established.
::Sigh:: The Mosaic Laws had a PURPOSE. They were designed to produce human beings who were the kind of person Jesus eventually demonstrated to them. The laws had failed because they were superficially interpreted as OBEDIENCE to commands NOT the deeper principle about what kind of person they were supposed to be. The failure of the laws is why Jesus was necessary as a HUMAN to show them what the laws were supposed to produce.
Jesus had to grow up as they did and become the kind of human the laws were supposed to produce. That is how He fulfilled them and that is why God the Father was pleased with Him. He needed to BECOME AS A HUMAN what God wanted from humans, why else would God have been pleased with Him?
Yes, I agree; however it wasn't the law that failed it was man's inability to keep it lovingly.
The point being is that corruption in the hierarchy doesn't invalidate the teachings or offices that the Lord establishes. Jesus affirms this in Matthew 23:3
I brought this up as a counter to your statement in post#745 ; "It broke itself off when it got into bed with secular power structures and took on the practices of those power structures. It did make an effort to right itself after the Reformation, but it was too little too late."
The office, authority, and teaching our Lord establishes thru it stands by Jesus authority - and not by any that any man , as demonstrated in scripture by our Lord here (and at Isaiah 22).
Our Lord gave no authority to any so-called 'reformer' to terminate or change what HE established.
Ah, OK, now I see where you were trying to go with that. Thanks for clarifying. I was never Catholic, so I don't always have the default Catholic perspective of "This is the church that Jesus started!" at the forefront of my mind. It can be startling to those of us raised in other Christian traditions how strong that mindset is in a devout Catholic person.
Ah, OK, now I see where you were trying to go with that. Thanks for clarifying. I was never Catholic, so I don't always have the default Catholic perspective of "This is the church that Jesus started!" at the forefront of my mind. It can be startling to those of us raised in other Christian traditions how strong that mindset is in a devout Catholic person.
Catholic, Mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, etc, all have the same mindset. Theirs is either the church they claim Jesus started or they are the church that Jesus choose to restore his gospel here on earth. It’s either their way or the highway. If you don’t bend your knee to their will you aren’t getting a heavenly reward. It’s some strong koolaid they’ve drank.
The point being is that corruption in the hierarchy doesn't invalidate the teachings or offices that the Lord establishes. Jesus affirms this in Matthew 23:3
I brought this up as a counter to your statement in post#745 ; "It broke itself off when it got into bed with secular power structures and took on the practices of those power structures. It did make an effort to right itself after the Reformation, but it was too little too late."
The office, authority, and teaching our Lord establishes thru it stands by Jesus authority - and not by any that any man , as demonstrated in scripture by our Lord here (and at Isaiah 22).
Our Lord gave no authority to any so-called 'reformer' to terminate or change what HE established.
You never responded to my statement. How do we listen to church leaders who say how THEIR faith and teachings are the CORRECT ones to follow and all other faiths and teachings are wrong?
You never responded to my statement. How do we listen to church leaders who say how THEIR faith and teachings are the CORRECT ones to follow and all other faiths and teachings are wrong?
I did in post #770 - but since you seem unfamiliar with the old and new covenant and the scriptures,
I'll answer the same as Jesus did in Matthew 23:2 & Mat 16:18-19 - listen to those who have taken their seat on the chair of Petros!
Catholic, Mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, etc, all have the same mindset. Theirs is either the church they claim Jesus started or they are the church that Jesus choose to restore his gospel here on earth. It’s either their way or the highway. If you don’t bend your knee to their will you aren’t getting a heavenly reward. It’s some strong koolaid they’ve drank.
That’s true
But that is part of the design, human bias is natural and has to do with the differentiation of the part, the portion, the administration, the responsibility for their own type and share
1 Corinthians 12 explains about Christianity as a whole being divided into Body parts or members
I think this should be read in conjunction with this
Joh 14:1**Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2**In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3**And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
The members of Christs Body are the congregations that gather together in His name
What has been happening since the Reformation is the separation of the many different members into separate dwelling places/abodes suitable to their own portion and mindset
Last edited by Meerkat2; 02-20-2023 at 12:13 PM..
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