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Some of us believe that God did not abandon us to speculations and assumptions, but that God established a sure means for objectively discerning what is true and what is untrue (see Matthew 28:18-20).
Some of us believe that God did not abandon us to speculations and assumptions, but that God established a sure means for objectively discerning what is true and what is untrue (see Matthew 28:18-20).
He did but most of you ignore Him and prefer the interpretations of our ignorant ancestors. Jesus on the Cross made it unambiguously clear what God's True Nature is. His Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness is infinite, not the capricious and barbaric notion our primitive ancestors' believed in.
If some people think Jesus was God and some think he wasn't, I can't see it as being a big issue anyway, as I'm sure God and Jesus won't mind either way what people believe on the matter..
What happens in a debate like this it seems there can be a tendency to get stuck in the challenge stage, for me I do not learn while in that challenging/attacking/defending mode.... I need to withdraw and read all the Scriptures that has been brought up and get a feel for the context and how it fits in the greater
We all learn differently sis for myself i always learn more from those i disagree with then i do from those i agree with.
It has to do with the layering and development and assembling pneuma
We individually do not ever get to be the most high,
Eph 1:17**That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18**The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19**And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20**Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21**Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22**And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23**Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I have never said we get to be the most high sis the Father will always be the Father and we will always be sons and daughters of the Father
What mike is missing Richard is that those scriptures are addressed to those who God entrusted the torah to and that was Israel. if read in context we see it is all about Defending the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy, Deliver the poor and needy: rid*them*out of the hand of the wicked,etc and when the Jew wanted to stone Jesus his reply to the Jews was Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Your and ye are in reference to the Jews who were entrusted with the law/torah.
Thus to insist it is speaking of some type of angelic beings is taking things out of the context they are written in.
You speak of not believing all of God's words. Yet you ignore the fact that the writer of Hebrews (chapter one) has God the Father calling the Son God while stating that He (the Father) is the Son's God. Understand? God the Father called the Son God and commanded the angels to worship the Son. The angels know that they are to worship only God, and they were told by the Father to worship the Son who was called God by the Father.
I ignored NO scripture, first ,Paul who wrote the Book of Hebrew, KNEW Jesus had a "Father and God." because he was taught the truth of what Jesus taught. at one time, he played part in having Jesus disciples arrested or stone to death,(Stephen)! in (Chapter 1:1-4), Paul did NOT say that Jesus Father is calling Jesus "GOD." Paul wouldn't have the Power to "have" "God the Father" call his Son..."god." in verse ONE, Paul spoke of how "God" Jehovah God, ("God the Father" are TWO TITLES, kind of like Mommy the Mom. if you do research you would see that God's Name was removed from most of the Bible. replaced with capital L-O-R-D or GOD. this is referring to Jehovah God, the ALMIGHTY GOD), spoke of Jesus reflecting the Glory of his Father.
and because he died a faithful man, he now sit in Heaven next to his Father. or as Jesus said in IN (John 17:3 "the ONLY TRUE GOD"), referring to his Father. Jesus was higher than the Angels, because Jesus was the first of ALL creation! (Colo.1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature). Jehovah God call that FIRST!... creation, his "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" ,(verse 5-7). of course he was Higher than ANY Angel. so it was fitting that they honor Jesus. again he wasn't referring to Jesus when he said "God" ,as in "let the Angels of God." he was referring to as you say, "God the Father." (verse 9 "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You"), Jesus was NOT called "God", it was a referring as the verse continued, "YOUR God." the speaking was basically saying...God, you God! NOT hey God I'm speaking about your God! there's a difference.
(verse 10) NOTICE the "LORD" in caps, do research and you'll see ,that should have been the "TRUE GOD's Name. "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth..." you speak of Jesus being called "God" and you say I "ignored the facts in book of Hebrew", which you don't even know me, so how do you know my feelings concerning the Book of Hebrew? did you chose to "IGNORE" Jesus being called an "ANGEL", since you're the one who pointed out to me Hebrew 1? ("But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?). Jesus is that "Angel" who's right now sitting next to GOD! see (Psa. 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”). did you NOTICE the TWO "lords" one in caps. the other isn't? that's referring to Jehovah God and Jesus.
lastly (verse "8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God", is forever and ever..."). when you do research ,again you're "understand" that word sand God's Name has been changed, removed or switch around "Your throne, O God", which originally said.. "God is your throne..." do you see how it makes a difference? satan had translators, switch or removed , in order to make a false teaching seem valid, "Jesus is God." but again, if we are truly FOLLOWING Jesus TEACHINGS. we would know that he NEVER gave himself honor as the Almighty God. he gave ALL Glory to his Father. you claimed I "ignored" again Hebrew 1. question... why does it seem as if you're "ignoring" EVERYTHING Jesus himself said, showing that he isn't "GOD", as in the almighty? peace
What mike is missing Richard is that those scriptures are addressed to those who God entrusted the torah to and that was Israel. if read in context we see it is all about Defending the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy, Deliver the poor and needy: rid*them*out of the hand of the wicked,etc and when the Jew wanted to stone Jesus his reply to the Jews was Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Your and ye are in reference to the Jews who were entrusted with the law/torah.
Thus to insist it is speaking of some type of angelic beings is taking things out of the context they are written in.
This is simply not what the best current scholarship believes. Do the legwork and you'll see. This is not Dr. Heiser's novel position. It predates Heiser by decades. Heiser published his thesis in 2004; I quickly found a dissertation from 1991 that propounds an essentially identical thesis, and it of course relied on much earlier sources.
The Divine Council thesis has been extremely influential throughout all strata of Christianity, even conservative evangelistic Christianity. It makes sense of many things that otherwise just don't fit.
The notion that the "gods" were Jewish judges assigned to rule the nations has also had a strong following. The problem is, there is no historical evidence of this and it doesn't have the explanatory power of the Divine Council thesis.
But anyway, even if your position were correct, it would only strengthen the point I made to Baptist Fundie: Jesus' reliance on Psalm 82 would have been an oddly weak and watered-down way of asserting or defending his status as God. By the Divine Council thesis, the "gods" were at least subordinate heavenly beings. By your thesis, they were just men.
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