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Katzpur, I’m really happy that you’ve joined in on this discussion. Highway, as you know, is a Jehovah’s Witness. We have been posting back and forth about John 10:16 for a few days now. It’s good to have you, being of the Mormon faith, join in the discussion. I hope you will continue.
Would you say “this fold” Jesus speaks of is the entire house of Israel?
John 10
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
No, I would say that "the sheep" to whom He came to minister were of the house of Israel and that those He referred to as being of "this fold" were only part of the house of Israel, i.e., part of the entire group of His sheep.
No, I would say that "the sheep" to whom He came to minister were of the house of Israel and that those He referred to as being of "this fold" were only part of the house of Israel, i.e., part of the entire group of His sheep.
I would agree with your assessment of “this fold.” I see this fold as the true followers, and they are of the house of Israel. Being of the house of Israel didn’t necessarily make one a true follower.
When Jesus speaks of His sheep, He says they hear His voice. In other words, they are His followers. They do as He says. They are those He speaks of as “this fold” in John 10:16, and they are a part of the House of Israel.
We agreed that the “little flock” were Jesus’ disciples (See your post #201). I’m not sure why you now refer to the little flock as the Israel of God. Maybe you could explain?
Yes I am familiar with Matthew 21:43. Jesus was speaking to the chief priests and elders who were questioning His authority.
It was to them He said, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” Jesus did not mean that He would take the kingdom from the nation of Israel. After all, His closest followers were of the nation of Israel. He is speaking specifically to the chief priests and elders. Jesus would take the kingdom from them. They had stopped producing fruit long ago. Jesus is saying He would give the kingdom to a nation bearing fruit. That nation would be His church. It would be His congregation, His body who would bear fruits. They would include both Jews and Gentiles.
It seems you have made two classes of Christians with your statement: 1. Citizens of the kingdom 2. kings and priests. I see them as one in the same. Can you provide Scripture to support this view?
Yes maybe we had better step back a step. As you seen there are two groups of sheep, one group is referred to as the little flock/bride of Christ/holy ones/saints, etc. They will reside with Jesus in heaven and are called the Israel of God. I have posted scriptural evidence prior, if you want to review. They all were called receiving the holy spirit, we refer to them as being baptized by holy spirit, and they are the brothers of Jesus. Upon Jesus' return those of them will meet him in the air.
If there is any of that you do not understand, ask for the scripture on that and I will expound further on that part.
Perhaps you do not realize that those leaders who Jesus was talking to, were the spiritual head of God's people at the time? He was not taking the Kingdom from individuals, rather from all those in the Law covenant, His nation fleshly Israel. A new covenant went into force, with a new nation now called the Israel of God, not from just descendants of Abraham, rather these would be made up from peoples of all nations. These the Kingdom was given to are the little flock maam.
Hi Miss Kate ~ I do know what you are talking about. Yes, there are many people who make up the body of Christ and not limited to one denomination, color, or nation. The important thing is that we have received Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, as you probably know. When one has received the Lord Jesus, things change. We don't become perfect in the flesh, but thankfully we are perfect in the Spirit, thus being born again. We are not perfect, but He is perfect in us...the treasure in the earthen vessel and that is the Good News
I would agree with your assessment of “this fold.” I see this fold as the true followers, and they are of the house of Israel. Being of the house of Israel didn’t necessarily make one a true follower.
When Jesus speaks of His sheep, He says they hear His voice. In other words, they are His followers. They do as He says. They are those He speaks of as “this fold” in John 10:16, and they are a part of the House of Israel.
Fair enough. I think we both knew we'd disagree on this point.
Hi Miss Kate ~ I do know what you are talking about. Yes, there are many people who make up the body of Christ and not limited to one denomination, color, or nation. The important thing is that we have received Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, as you probably know. When one has received the Lord Jesus, things change. We don't become perfect in the flesh, but thankfully we are perfect in the Spirit, thus being born again. We are not perfect, but He is perfect in us...the treasure in the earthen vessel and that is the Good News
Hi Nancy. Thanks for responding. I agree with much of what you say. The thing I take issue with is this. Jesus said, “ God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24). Most people I know have no problem worshiping in spirit. It’s the truth part where many fall short. There is their truth, and then there is God’s truth. Jesus, when praying to the Father said, “Thy word is truth.” IMHO, we have wandered very far from His truth, following the teachings of men rather than those of our creator.
Fair enough. I think we both knew we'd disagree on this point.
Actually, I thought we would agree, but then, I really don’t know the Mormon view at all. I’m more familiar with the JW’s view as I have studied with them. I can’t say I’ve ever studied with a Mormon. They have never come to my door, but if they did, I’d welcome them and invite them to study.
So what exactly did you disagree with and why?
Would you say a flock and a fold are referring to the same thing in the Scriptures?
Yes maybe we had better step back a step. As you seen there are two groups of sheep, one group is referred to as the little flock/bride of Christ/holy ones/saints, etc. They will reside with Jesus in heaven and are called the Israel of God. I have posted scriptural evidence prior, if you want to review. They all were called receiving the holy spirit, we refer to them as being baptized by holy spirit, and they are the brothers of Jesus. Upon Jesus' return those of them will meet him in the air.
If there is any of that you do not understand, ask for the scripture on that and I will expound further on that part.
Perhaps you do not realize that those leaders who Jesus was talking to, were the spiritual head of God's people at the time? He was not taking the Kingdom from individuals, rather from all those in the Law covenant, His nation fleshly Israel. A new covenant went into force, with a new nation now called the Israel of God, not from just descendants of Abraham, rather these would be made up from peoples of all nations. These the Kingdom was given to are the little flock maam.
I agree. Let’s take a step back, and I also suggest we take it slow. As far as I can tell, Luke 12:32 is the only time the words “little flock” are used in Scripture. We know Jesus is speaking to His disciples when He says it.
The two groups I see in John 10:16 are “this fold” and other sheep. They are Jews and Gentiles. I gave you Scripture to support my view.
My understanding of Jehovah’s Witness teaching is that you believe the “little flock” to be the 144,000 who reside in heaven with Jesus or will someday. The governing body is part of this group. The second group are JW’s such as yourself who will reside on paradise earth. If I have misrepresented JW teaching, please let me know.
Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where it says that the “little flock” is this same group as the 144,000?
Let me ask you this. “Why couldn’t the ‘little flock’ whom the Father gave the kingdom simply be the apostles in Luke 12:32? After all, He did tell them that in the end times they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).”
I agree. Let’s take a step back, and I also suggest we take it slow. As far as I can tell, Luke 12:32 is the only time the words “little flock” are used in Scripture. We know Jesus is speaking to His disciples when He says it.
The two groups I see in John 10:16 are “this fold” and other sheep. They are Jews and Gentiles. I gave you Scripture to support my view.
My understanding of Jehovah’s Witness teaching is that you believe the “little flock” to be the 144,000 who reside in heaven with Jesus or will someday. The governing body is part of this group. The second group are JW’s such as yourself who will reside on paradise earth. If I have misrepresented JW teaching, please let me know.
Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where it says that the “little flock” is this same group as the 144,000?
Let me ask you this. “Why couldn’t the ‘little flock’ whom the Father gave the kingdom simply be the apostles in Luke 12:32? After all, He did tell them that in the end times they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).”
I agree Jesus was referring to his apostles as being the little flock, of course there would be many who joined them as the Bible clearly states there will be 144k redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and priests in heaven. Those ones are the ones who are in the new covenant maam.
And you understand correctly the other sheep are those Christians who will inherit the earth, likely numbering into the billions, as those who survive the great tribulation are innumerable. The little flock are in fact referred to as the Israel of God, made up from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues, so it is not at all improper for you to call the other sheep gentiles, as they are Christians as I am sure you agree, but of course they are not of that flock, but they are part of the one flock under one shepherd.
I think the problem lies in understanding God's purpose for the earth, He does not change maam, nor do His purposes. He has promised that those who belong to Him will inherit the earth and reside upon it forever Ps 37:29. Only 14k are ever referred to as leaving this earth, and the reason they leave is clearly stated.
I agree Jesus was referring to his apostles as being the little flock, of course there would be many who joined them as the Bible clearly states there will be 144k redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and priests in heaven. Those ones are the ones who are in the new covenant maam.
And you understand correctly the other sheep are those Christians who will inherit the earth, likely numbering into the billions, as those who survive the great tribulation are innumerable. The little flock are in fact referred to as the Israel of God, made up from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues, so it is not at all improper for you to call the other sheep gentiles, as they are Christians as I am sure you agree, but of course they are not of that flock, but they are part of the one flock under one shepherd.
I think the problem lies in understanding God's purpose for the earth, He does not change maam, nor do His purposes. He has promised that those who belong to Him will inherit the earth and reside upon it forever Ps 37:29. Only 14k are ever referred to as leaving this earth, and the reason they leave is clearly stated.
Thanks for letting me know that I stated your beliefs correctly! I noticed, however, that you didn’t answer my questions. It would be helpful if you did. Here they are again.
Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where it says that the “little flock” is this same group as the 144,000?
Let me ask you this. “Why couldn’t the ‘little flock’ whom the Father gave the kingdom simply be the apostles in Luke 12:32? After all, He did tell them that in the end times they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).”
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