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You go on believing what you study and I will go along learning what I am taught since I lack that spiritual gift.
Who told you that you lack? Jesus said ask, and it shall be given you, seek and to you shall find, knock and it will be opened. This does not mean physical things!!
Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Luk 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Lol...prove it your just repeating what some other person said! people where pursicuted in that period and that was all in vain because some dweeb would come along pervert the reason they were martyred.
What do you mean? In the dark ages heretics were martyred because they wanted freedom from an oppressive organisation that was into controlling the masses - The Roman Catholic Church persecuted who they deemed to be heretics - this is institutional organised christianity protecting their livelihood - what does God say "Thou shalt not kill" murderers have a place in the lake of fire - A corrupt tree does not produce good fruit, and a good tree does not produce corrupt fruit.
The doctrines and rituals that have come through that organisation should be examined for truth, but they are not examined they have been taken by the "protestant church" and divided among them - getting rid of some of the ritual and replacing it with more ritual.
The "heretics" in "the dark ages" were martyred because they did not bow down to an oppressive religion.
I am coming to the conclusion that organised christianity seems to be about controlling what people think, how to interpret the bible - what parts to explain away.
What do you mean? In the dark ages heretics were martyred because they wanted freedom from an oppressive organisation that was into controlling the masses - The Roman Catholic Church persecuted who they deemed to be heretics - this is institutional organised christianity protecting their livelihood - what does God say "Thou shalt not kill" murderers have a place in the lake of fire - A corrupt tree does not produce good fruit, and a good tree does not produce corrupt fruit.
The doctrines and rituals that have come through that organisation should be examined for truth, but they are not examined they have been taken by the "protestant church" and divided among them - getting rid of some of the ritual and replacing it with more ritual.
The "heretics" in "the dark ages" were martyred because they did not bow down to an oppressive religion.
I am coming to the conclusion that organised christianity seems to be about controlling what people think, how to interpret the bible - what parts to explain away.
Wow meerkat2 ... I agree, but be careful of catholic church bashing!
Wow, can you imagine how limited we would be if we were not allowed to speak concerning the fallacy of the roman catholic church(or the protestant church for that matter)? We would all be idol worshiping cannibals then ...
Wow meerkat2 ... I agree, but be careful of catholic church bashing!
Wow, can you imagine how limited we would be if we were not allowed to speak concerning the fallacy of the roman catholic church(or the protestant church for that matter)? We would all be idol worshiping cannibals then ...
Doh ... ! There I go again, me and my big mouth!
Ironmaw
Sometimes I feel like this
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
18 months ago - I saw the sweetness of the good news Christ crucified in the flesh, but raised by the Spirit - and then the bitterness of all the divisions and arguments in organised christianity and being told that I needed to believe in a God who chooses a select {few} and torments all others in eternal torment not for any deeds they have done but just for being born without their consent, human
I know the Catholic christians don't want to look at the past to see what fruit is there - it is the organisation that leads people astray.
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
18 months ago - I saw the sweetness of the good news Christ crucified in the flesh, but raised by the Spirit - and then the bitterness of all the divisions and arguments in organised christianity and being told that I needed to believe in a God who chooses a select {few} and torments all others in eternal torment not for any deeds they have done but just for being born without their consent, human
I know the Catholic christians don't want to look at the past to see what fruit is there - it is the organisation that leads people astray.
Imagine a world where each Christian just read the bible, using their own brain and "gifts" they lack?
97% of the people who say they've been born again and attend church regularly have never read the Bible through even once. Read it like God gave it, book by book, from the first verse of the first chapter consecutively through to the last verse of the last chapter of that book. So simple but not done.
"Somewhere the Scripture says, "The Lord watches over His word to perform it." If you just read His Word there is a gift to make it work for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
I study scripture very hard using basic hermeneutical principals. I subject myself under great teachers who were taught by other great teacher, who were taught by other great teachers and so forth. These are men who were given the gifts of teaching and interpretation as the bible says. I do not have the gift of interpretation so I study hard, learn from teachers and pray for correct discernment/understanding.
Many hermeneutical principles are misleading and should be dumped or corrected. That conclusion is only after many years study. But that is another discussion.
This quote from you is a classic definition of "tradition:" ...under great teachers who were taught by other great teacher, who were taught by other great teachers and so forth." Jesus said to those of His day that, the traditions of men made void the Word of God. It still does. If you've ever gone through the Gospel of John you should recognize the same religious opposition and God negating tradition of the elders is all around us today in Institutional Christianity.
Paul also, in the first "oracles of God" to be written in almost half a millennia, in the first letter written after a man achieved victory over death, says he is an "apostle (not from men, neither through a man..." (Ga 1:1 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Gal+1%3A1 - broken link)) He was not a product of any group nor did he represent any group of men. He was not ordained of men nor mentored by a man. He says, "When it delights God...to unveil His Son in me...I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood, neither came I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me..." and goes further in saying he didn't go where the move of God was happening, where men who were qualified by walking with the incarnation Himself for 3 1/2 years. He says he went the opposite direction, "away into Arabia..." (Ga 1:15-17 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Gal+1%3A15-17 - broken link)) In case we don't understand the Spirit's take on authority, Paul goes further to say, "Now from those reputed to be somewhat--what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)--for to me those of repute submitted (or,added) nothing." (Ga 2:6 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Gal+2%3A6 - broken link)) Well wouldn't you know it, he has to darn the hole with an iron thread! He brags about how he, "withstood [Cephas] to the face..." (Ga 2:11 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Gal+2%3A11 - broken link)) The only authority in the Church which is His body is Jesus present as the Holy Spirit. The true servants of God connect us to the Head and secure and enlarge that connection. Rather than the Holy Spirit giving them to lead the people, they give people over to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I love good teaching. Even not so good if it is the product of some study. I have thousands of messages and very many books. But, so many subject others to themselves without understanding the true nature of the New Covenant teacher, which is to place others under subjection to the Holy Spirit instead. Rather than maintaining the spiritual unity already in place from the new birth, many try to use their own authority to make others mentally agree, which is soulical and not spiritual. This actually causes division.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Verse 19 is creation, meaning animate and inanimate, except human beings, v 22-23 where "whole creation" and "we ourselves" are contrasted. Of course you are taking it out of context since you say, verse 19 is talking about human beings separate from God's children or vanity? which I have no clue how you came up with that. Our interpretations are directly opposed to one another.
Read verses 20-21...Did God make Adamic mankind from the dust of the earth? I'm convinced people aren't taught the implications of Adam as Son of God (cf., Lk 3:38) or what we are to God the Father because we are His creation. The words "new creation" have no meaning if we are not a creation in the first place. According to the Bible the animals, for instance, have spirits, souls and bodies. Jesus is called "The Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." His animal aspect was resurrected, so we read of, "The marriage supper of the Lamb," which means our flesh in union with his immortal flesh makes us immortal too. What do you suppose Jesus meant when He told His disciples to, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature?" That He only intended the animals, plants and rocks and such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
You go on believing what you study and I will go along learning what I am taught since I lack that spiritual gift.
Everyone who has the indwelling Spirit of God has all that Jesus is and does in them. That means the fullness (pleroma) is in you. But, it requires us to mature, making advance in our availability to Him. Religion that uses many of the same words can trap and suppress the unknowing soul, stunting their growth and preventing them, because of intimacies with the prostitute of Babylon, from reproducing the image of God. This is what is taught in the beginning of Proverbs. By going through the rest of Proverbs, all the wisdom there, it results in the virtuous woman, a bride espoused to one husband, in the last of Proverbs.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 07-21-2009 at 06:03 PM..
Some will say that only a few are God's children, the rest are children of the devil. That may be true now, but I believe all will eventually be God's children, as this verse says all creation will join them:
Romans 8:19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Cool!
You can not take one verse out of the Bible and interpret it based on your own hopeful thinking.
God's Word in both the old and new testament makes it very plain that there is a hell, the devil, demons, and all unsaved will spend eternity there with no hope of redemption. It also makes it clear that few, not many will be saved.
Please be open to all of God's word even if it is hard to accept at times.
Also the construct of the verse you reference clearly argues against your conclusion. If the reference to "the creation" included people (saved and unsaved) there would be no need to mention "God's children" separately in the verse.
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