Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago high speed rail (Columbus, Dayton: bankruptcy, safety, manufactured)

[kjbrill]

Same premise on the math.You made statements on the cost of the stadiums whiich I cannot confirm. If you can please post them here. Frankly I believe most of you are just anti-sports people. Give the Music Hall people anything they want, but the sports people let them hang.

Just my belief. I frankly don't want to subside any sub-professional sport. Far as I am concerned they should all be all be on their own tab.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Give the Music Hall people anything they want, but the sports people let them hang..

Isn't the exact opposite of this what is actually occurring? When have the sports teams not gotten what they wanted? I don't understand.

[American Luxury]

Originally Posted by progmac

Isn't the exact opposite of this what is actually occurring? When have the sports teams not gotten what they wanted? I don't understand.

No, he said you, as in the people on this forum.

[Kevin1813]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Your math was wrong. But, since your premise is also wrong I have no interest in furthering this. What on earth would GDP have to do with a streetcar funded by tax revenues on income or sales? Who cares. No one. the streetcar was a mistake, a very expensive one. Cincinnati will never have and does not need any of Phily's streetcar and rail service. Enjoy Philly. Great city.

If your only retort is "I'm right, you're wrong" there really isn't much else to say. I respect your right to have a seperate opinion even if I disagree with the way you are argue it. I apologize that I obviously upset you, it was not my intent. Take care.

[Kevin1813]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Same premise on the math.You made statements on the cost of the stadiums whiich I cannot confirm. If you can please post them here. Frankly I believe most of you are just anti-sports people. Give the Music Hall people anything they want, but the sports people let them hang.

Just my belief. I frankly don't want to subside any sub-professional sport. Far as I am concerned they should all be all be on their own tab.

Paul Brown Stadium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great American Ball Park - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand it's wikipedia and not always the most accurate, but if anyone has more accurate figures feel free to point them out.

[2nd trick op]

Speaking as a Transportation/Logistics graduate and lifelong railroad buff, the problem here is that the public (and most of the politicians) don't understand what is meant by "High Speed Rail", nor the cost of the real thing.

At present we have one "High Speed Rail" system in service -- the original Boston-New York-Washington Northeast Corridor. Its Acela trainsets have a top speed of 150 MPH, but can attain it over only about 5% of the route -- ironically, in Rhode Island. Many obstacles, from drawbridges, to tunnels, to older electrical catenary (overhead wires) prevent it from attaining its full potential.

California began construction on a 400-mile West Coast network last year. Wisely, the first segments are in the flat Central Valley , where higher speeds can be attained early in the project. But finding a route over the San Gabriel Mountains and into Los Angeles is going to be a challenge. It's possible that a deal can give rise to a public/private joint project, since the California freight rail network was never fully developed

Which leaves the Midwest, slowly evolving into a hub-and-spoke pattern around Chicago. To date, only the St. Louis and Detroit "spokes" have the Federally-mandated signal systems needed to operate at a speed of over 80 MPH, and other routes, such as the Cleveland and Indianapolis/Cincinnati "spokes" see only limited Amtrak service.

What the politicians promising this pie-in-the-sky don't tell us about the Japanese and French systems held out as examples is that these operations were built essentially "from scratch" rather than converting existing rail lines. Nor do they point out that their ridership has a stronger "incentive" to use them in the form of much higher taxes on both vehicles and fuel.

I want to close with a link to another project in Pennsylvania which should serve to illustrate the gap between public/political perception and economic reality:

//www.city-data.com/forum/great...l#post38634761

There are places in America, particularly along the two Coasts and in the congested areas around the mega-cities, where the potential for new highways is saturated and rail transit makes sense; but it will be quite a while before Indiana and Western Ohio are numbered among them.

[Fl1150]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

Speaking as a Transportation/Logistics graduate and lifelong railroad buff, the problem here is that the public (and most of the politicians) don't understand what is meant by "High Speed Rail", nor the cost of the real thing.

At present we have one "High Speed Rail" system in service -- the original Boston-New York-Washington Northeast Corridor. Its Acela trainsets have a top speed of 150 MPH, but can attain it over only about 5% of the route -- ironically, in Rhode Island. Many obstacles, from drawbridges, to tunnels, to older electrical catenary (overhead wires) prevent it from attaining its full potential.

California began construction on a 400-mile West Coast network last year. Wisely, the first segments are in the flat Central Valley , where higher speeds can be attained early in the project. But finding a route over the San Gabriel Mountains and into Los Angeles is going to be a challenge. It's possible that a deal can give rise to a public/private joint project, since the California freight rail network was never fully developed

Which leaves the Midwest, slowly evolving into a hub-and-spoke pattern around Chicago. To date, only the St. Louis and Detroit "spokes" have the Federally-mandated signal systems needed to operate at a speed of over 80 MPH, and other routes, such as the Cleveland and Indianapolis/Cincinnati "spokes" see only limited Amtrak service.

What the politicians promising this pie-in-the-sky don't tell us about the Japanese and French systems held out as examples is that these operations were built essentially "from scratch" rather than converting existing rail lines. Nor do they point out that their ridership has a stronger "incentive" to use them in the form of much higher taxes on both vehicles and fuel.

I want to close with a link to another project in Pennsylvania which should serve to illustrate the gap between public/political perception and economic reality:

//www.city-data.com/forum/great...l#post38634761

There are places in America, particularly along the two Coasts and in the congested areas around the mega-cities, where the potential for new highways is saturated and rail transit makes sense; but it will be quite a while before Indiana and Western Ohio are numbered among them.

I agree because a lot those countries are densely populated vs America which is pretty big and spread out. Like you said only in big cities and clusters with large population would something like that be truly useful. However I think the California project is good foot in the door because it usually takes years to develop those systems so I'm happy about that. Rail should be just option for transportation but the perspectives from most of the people on this board are from the suburbs so of course they don't see any incentive to have it. If I am a young professional living in a crowded city with lots of traffic I would rather take the train as an alternative because its faster.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Fl1150

I agree because a lot those countries are densely populated vs America which is pretty big and spread out. Like you said only in big cities and clusters with large population would something like that be truly useful. However I think the California project is good foot in the door because it usually takes years to develop those systems so I'm happy about that. Rail should be just option for transportation but the perspectives from most of the people on this board are from the suburbs so of course they don't see any incentive to have it. If I am a young professional living in a crowded city with lots of traffic I would rather take the train as an alternative because its faster.

Mostly the train is used when there is no better alternative. If parking is $37 per day, not always available, and is the end point of an hour and thirty minutes expressway nightmare, then the train with its dedicated rails looks pretty good. But, don't be fooled by this phenomenon, it only looks good to a person who is facing parking at $37 per day (not always available), and an hour and thirty minutes expressway nightmare.

But, if a person is facing a ~60 mph 13 mile commute with NPR Morning Edition on, air conditioned comfort a $65/month ($3/day) parking space at the destination, and the ability to swing by the drive-through burger place on the way home, a train is the last thing in the world they want to consider.

Somewhere between those two alternative commutes, dedicated rails become more attractive even if not more economical.

Where does Cincinnati sit on that range? We are the endpoint. Call us in 300 years.

[ProkNo5]

Originally Posted by Fl1150

I agree because a lot those countries are densely populated vs America which is pretty big and spread out. Like you said only in big cities and clusters with large population would something like that be truly useful. However I think the California project is good foot in the door because it usually takes years to develop those systems so I'm happy about that. Rail should be just option for transportation but the perspectives from most of the people on this board are from the suburbs so of course they don't see any incentive to have it. If I am a young professional living in a crowded city with lots of traffic I would rather take the train as an alternative because its faster.

I completely agree, and I'd add that Ohio has a population density greater than France.

[kjbrill]

High Speed Rail belongs out there with the door-to-door high grade meat salesmen as they are both conning the American Public.