Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago high speed rail (Norwood, Wilson: houses, horse, cars)

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

No I seriously disagree. Bring out your financing plan, how the rails and infrastructure will be constructed and paid for and the operating plan and maybe I will listen. Until then it is a pipe dream desired by many who want the public financing to pay for it. Just like my objections to public financed sports facilities. It is time those benefiting from a specific project are directly subjected to paying for it.

To me HSR is a laughing matter, simply because it is not needed.

So you agree that the gas tax should probably be doubled or tripled at least, or that almost all roads should be tolled. Or maybe even a combination of the two. Great!!

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

The truth is that no meaningful discussion will ever be had on this issue with some people. The ones most opposed to alternative transit, like Wilson and kjbrill, come from a much different generation that has spent its entire existence fetishizing a car-based lifestyle. These just aren't the people you have to focus on. Their minds are made up, they're not changing. They love the car and they demand you love it too.

When you say fetishizing that is the first indication you are politicizing rather than discussing. Yes, it is true people like Wilson and I enjoy a car based lifestyle, but see we equate that with an enjoyable lifestyle, not a fetish.

Demanding return to an old, out-of-date technology like rail, forcing people into undesirable, smelly and odor filled environments is to me a fetish. Tell them what is good for them and demand conformance, remove their ability of independent decision. Hope to drive my car until the end of my days and frankly think I will, or at least have a driver who will.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

The truth is that no meaningful discussion will ever be had on this issue with some people. The ones most opposed to alternative transit, like Wilson and kjbrill, come from a much different generation that has spent its entire existence fetishizing a car-based lifestyle. These just aren't the people you have to focus on. Their minds are made up, they're not changing. They love the car and they demand you love it too.

The truth is that everyone here enjoys a car based life style, everyone except the truly urban poor. And, even they buy a fancy car as the first thing that catches their eye when they become employed.

Only urban planners and counter-culturists want to do away with the car based lifestyle. KJ and I are just vocal and honest about it.

[WheresTheBeef]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The truth is that everyone here enjoys a car based life style, everyone except the truly urban poor. And, even they buy a fancy car as the first thing that catches their eye when they become employed.

Only urban planners and counter-culturists want to do away with the car based lifestyle. KJ and I are just vocal and honest about it.

I wouldn't have a problem (but not streetcars) with trains if they get installed from a clean slate, but that's not the way we do infrastructure in this country. We build something, tear it apart, rebuild it, tear it apart again, etc. The way we build infrastructure is like building a house and tearing it down because you wanted to add a basement.

I actually think bike paths are more useful than trains. Downtown is 10 or 12 miles from most places and a 10 mile ride on a bike is like nothing.

[cincydave8]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The truth is that everyone here enjoys a car based life style, everyone except the truly urban poor. And, even they buy a fancy car as the first thing that catches their eye when they become employed.

Only urban planners and counter-culturists want to do away with the car based lifestyle. KJ and I are just vocal and honest about it.

I don't really enjoy the car, a long with a lot of millennials. I mean, I like my Subaru fine but cars are expensive to buy and maintain. My generation has a different view of car freedom. A lot of us have painful memories of sitting in the back seat of Buicks for hours in traffic jams. A train on the other hand could mean reliable quick service and not stuck in the back seat on some rural highway.

The many reasons millennials are shunning cars - The Washington Post

Millennials Are Abandoning Cars for Bikes, Carshare. Will It Stick? | The New Republic

Millennials Don't Drive--And Here's Why They Aren't Likely To Start Anytime Soon | Co.Exist | ideas + impact

Thanks to millennials, driving is no longer a thing - Salon.com

on the flip:
It Turns Out That Millennials Do Drive - CityLab

So I guess large chunks of 20 and 30 somethings are urban planners or counter-culturist.

Of course even now the Feds are starting to admit that we may have reached a ceiling on driving miles
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/0...-boom-is-over/

[progmac]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The truth is that everyone here enjoys a car based life style, everyone except the truly urban poor. And, even they buy a fancy car as the first thing that catches their eye when they become employed.

Only urban planners and counter-culturists want to do away with the car based lifestyle. KJ and I are just vocal and honest about it.

Wilson, you portray a world of extremes and us-vs-them opinions. A lot of us are participants in a car-based lifestyle, but that doesn't mean we view it as some kind of ideal. Yes, we are reluctant to spend our tax dollars on unproven and costly rail infrastructure but we are equally uneasy about the current system of being entirely dependent on a hunk of expensive metal.

[Kevin1813]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

So you agree that the gas tax should probably be doubled or tripled at least, or that almost all roads should be tolled. Or maybe even a combination of the two. Great!!

Most anti-rail/pro-car people are very similar to libertarians in Iowa. All about eliminating Government spending until the farm bill comes up. Similarly, anti-rail advocates harp about the costs of a transit system while using an interstate system that is funded approximately 50% by the general fund and approximately 50% by a gas tax that is paid by all drivers regardless of whether or not they use the system.

If anti-rail people truely paid the cost of the transportation system they use, they'd be fully within their right to be upset at the idea of large Government funded transit projects. But the reality is that they are demanding that everyone conform to their type of subsidized lifestyle and complaining when others advocate for a different subsidized lifestyle.

[kjbrill]

Come on get real. Where do you think all of those taxes paid by trucks are going to? Certainly not some ill-conceived rail system.

Those advocating rail systems seem to think we can just back up to the 18th century. Doesn't exactly work that way. Some transit systems like subways work very well in high density urban districts. But come to Cincinnati and I can show you one languishing in deterioration for decades. As Wilson says there has to be a demand before you get a change. At this time I just don't see such a demand.

We have some social elements asking for a change. The majority far as I am concerned are these tagged Millennials who simply don't have enough integrity or gumption to match what their forbears achieved. Sorry if I **** you off, but that is my exact feelings.

So glad my 4 kids are not considered part of this current generation. Don't know exactly what generation they are part of. But I do know they and their kids are not just part of the public handout approach. I hope that will recompense some of my attitudes.

[Kevin1813]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

We have some social elements asking for a change. The majority far as I am concerned are these tagged Millennials who simply don't have enough integrity or gumption to match what their forbears achieved. Sorry if I **** you off, but that is my exact feelings.

So glad my 4 kids are not considered part of this current generation. Don't know exactly what generation they are part of. But I do know they and their kids are not just part of the public handout approach. I hope that will recompense some of my attitudes.

You're feelings don't offend me in the least, they are quite comical.

Millennials have entered a world in which middle and lower class purchasing power have been nearly stagnent since the late 60's. The countries infrasturcture requires vast amounts of reinvestment while the SS Trust fund is nearly bankrupt and the National Debt exceeds 100% of yearly GDP. And just 60 years ago, America was perhaps the greatest economic power in the history of human civilization.

It's certainly hard to imagine Millennials ever having the "integrity or gumption" to match the squandering of advantages to the extent that Baby Boomers have.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

When you say fetishizing that is the first indication you are politicizing rather than discussing. Yes, it is true people like Wilson and I enjoy a car based lifestyle, but see we equate that with an enjoyable lifestyle, not a fetish.

Demanding return to an old, out-of-date technology like rail, forcing people into undesirable, smelly and odor filled environments is to me a fetish. Tell them what is good for them and demand conformance, remove their ability of independent decision. Hope to drive my car until the end of my days and frankly think I will, or at least have a driver who will.

I see it as calling it like it is. There seems to be a fairly obvious generational gap between the love of cars and the demand for alternatives. Personally, I recognize that roads and cars have a purpose and use, and I am not advocating getting rid of them entirely. That would be silly. I just want to see other types of investment made in forms that are more economically, socially and environmentally responsible, as well as providing options for more people.

The car is more than 100 years old and has changed very little in that time, so speaking about outdated technology in reference to trains while getting googly-eyed over cars is pretty hypocritical. Both forms are still used today.