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^Ouch.
If that isn't decline then I don't know what is.
That poster didn't even provide evidence and it is completely contrary to the UNITED STATES CENSUS numbers. This forum is such a joke.
Get over your hate for Chicago. It's sickening to the point that you will listen to someone spew off numbers with no source over someone who has official numbers only because it supports your hate and your narrative. You don't need to put down Chicago to make Toronto look good. Toronto is a great city - this is not a situation where only one city can be great.
I think the issue that you are having is that you are confusing rate of change with actual change. The rate of change YOY decreased - sure. The issue is that it's just one year in the negative as far as actual change goes, not rate of change. The issue is that the decline in rate of change YOY was very gradual then BOOM. This is actually counter to what's going on in the city right now and as someone who knows what is going on in the city (not just downtown or in the north side), I have no doubts that it will be reversed when the 2016 numbers come out based on everything I know.
Most of the city is not in decline even population wise - quite the opposite. Some areas are for sure - most cities have areas that are in decline. Even NYC does believe it or not. I'll show you the data soon in map form and will give you enough information to be able to check my work.
The handful of areas that are in decline that make up most of it for the city are getting a much needed boost now. The city treasurer, who is an amazing guy, got the mayor to sign off on a $100M deal for these communities for economic and educational development. He is a former invesetor, trader, etc so he has gotten investment firms from across the country to buy into it which should increase that $100M to much more, but he also grew up in a bad part of Chicago so he understands the actual issues facing them (and he seems to think that violence in these communities is largely due to economics) probably better than anybody else in as high up of a position in city government.
That guy should actually consider running for mayor. Many people want him to - many people in the neighborhoods that feel left out by Emmanuel want him, as do the people in the prosperous areas.
That's great to hear something is being done.
It will definitely interesting to see what happens next year considering three major factors:
-the murder/shootings rates not seen since 1998
-a new "president", and
-the 13% increase in property tax that Rahm passed this summer
That poster didn't even provide evidence and it is completely contrary to the UNITED STATES CENSUS numbers. This forum is such a joke.
Get over your hate for Chicago. It's sickening to the point that you will listen to someone spew off numbers with no source over someone who has official numbers only because it supports your hate and your narrative. You don't need to put down Chicago to make Toronto look good. Toronto is a great city - this is not a situation where only one city can be great.
When did I put down Chicago? Everything I posted was from links publicly available on the internet or is a widely know fact.
And where did I say Toronto is the only good city and I hate Chicago? Those words didn't come from me.
I already said many times that I visit Chicago annually (was there in twice since last November) and my first post in this thread said it's a battle between T.O. and the Chi.
And I posted a list of things that the city has improved on well. Do these not mean anything to you? No of course not, because you don't even live in Chicago and don't experience what's going on there in a daily basis. You haven't a ****ing clue and if you think you do, sorry, no.
No one is saying Chicago is a third world ghetto city or even Detroit.
Just that Chicago has been declining overall.
It's declining from a lofty place, but declining nonetheless. And this is relative. You may have investment and economic growth, but other places have more of it.
The consequence is it gives other competing cities including Toronto, but also SF, DC, and Houston an opportunity to eventually catch up and surpass Chicago, which is exactly what is happening.
I have provided economic and business data that shows otherwise. Regardless of all of this, it's still more powerfully economically and business-wise than Toronto. Sorry, but that is the truth regardless of whether it's in decline or not the economic power of the region has in no way declined. BOTH are amazing cities overall and in their areas. There is no denying this for anybody who is familiar with both cities/areas. Even if you think there is a decline in population in the last 5 years (there's not, both the city and region have increased) - the economic prowess of the region has NOT declined.
No one is saying Chicago is a third world ghetto city or even Detroit.
Just that Chicago has been declining overall.
It's declining from a lofty place, but declining nonetheless. And this is relative. You may have investment and economic growth, but other places have more of it.
The consequence is it gives other competing cities including Toronto, but also SF, DC, and Houston an opportunity to eventually catch up and surpass Chicago, which is exactly what is happening.
Exactly! This is exactly what is happening and various government statistics indicate these trends.
But when we mention it, it's a problem for Chicagoans in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
I have provided economic and business data that shows otherwise. Regardless of all of this, it's still more powerfully economically and business-wise than Toronto. Sorry, but that is the truth regardless of whether it's in decline or not the economic power of the region has in no way declined. BOTH are amazing cities overall and in their areas. There is no denying this for anybody who is familiar with both cities/areas. Even if you think there is a decline in population in the last 5 years (there's not, both the city and region have increased) - the economic prowess of the region has NOT declined.
Economics is a very broad word.
Socio-economics for example is where Toronto clearly outshines Chicago.
The same can be said about business data. It's a broad term.
Not taking either side on the topic of population or decline, but I don't think sunbelt cities surpassing others in population is an indication of decline. The way Sunbelt "cities" work is that their city borders and metros take up an INSANE amount of land, and fill it with suburban sprawl, strip malls, highways, detached SFHs, low density everything (especially population), etc. everything that is UNcharacteristic of a typical city. And then they'll have a small, bland, boring downtown core with a few amount of middle-sized, ugly skyscrapers and call it a city.
You can't walk anywhere in these types of cities, and public transit is almost non-existent. They are more suburban than many Northeast suburbs. Typical sunbelt cities make Staten Island look like Manhattan, lol. The only thing that makes sunbelt cities "big cities" is how they draw their borders. That's it. Giving NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly city+metros a similar amount of land area and you'll see that sunbelt "cities" are actually much smaller and less significant.
Houston may overtake Chicago, and Phoenix may overtake Philly in population, but I don't think that would make them more significant. The one sunbelt city I'll leave as an exception is LA. LA has some of the same issues, but it is unique enough.
Sorry for the rant. I try to avoid any threads discussing sunbelt cities and trying to compare them to actual cities, but I just had to get that out
Economics is a very broad word.
Socio-economics for example is where Toronto clearly outshines Chicago.
The same can be said about business data. It's a broad term.
And I showed you numerous indicators that show otherwise. Sure, it might outshine Chicago in livability (everybody knows that, this isn't presenting anything new) but Chicago is no slouch on this either for the most part. No single, sane person who knows anything about global business would ever say that Toronto is above Chicago on a global scale as far as business goes. And really nobody does, considering the economic rankings of the cities always have Chicago as either the #2 most powerfully economic/business area in North America behind NYC or 3rd (sometimes behind either LA or SF).
So I am curious - what companies are based in the Toronto area that can compete with what is based in the Chicago area? I am talking about companies that do business in many different places that everybody knows about like Boeing or a McDonald's. Are you also going to tell me that the TSX is more important than the CBOT/CBOE, literally the largest market in North America, too now?
And I showed you numerous indicators that show otherwise. Sure, it might outshine Chicago in livability (everybody knows that, this isn't presenting anything new) but Chicago is no slouch on this either for the most part. No single, sane person who knows anything about global business would ever say that Toronto is above Chicago on a global scale as far as business goes. And really nobody does, considering the economic rankings of the cities always have Chicago as either the #2 most powerfully economic/business area in North America behind NYC or 3rd (sometimes behind either LA or SF).
So I am curious - what companies are based in the Toronto area that can compete with what is based in the Chicago area? I am talking about companies that do business in many different places that everybody knows about like Boeing or a McDonald's. Are you also going to tell me that the TSX is more important than the CBOT/CBOE, literally the largest market in North America, too now?
You overstate Chicago.
Chicago in the USA is a distant third, behind LA and NYC. The gap grows wider every year. It is nowhere near #2.
Compared to Toronto, as far as business goes, Chicago edges Toronto out, but the gap is very small (both are roughly equally ranked Alpha world cities), and again shrinking every year.
When you combine business with diversity, livability, crime, and growth, Toronto comes out ahead overall versus Chicago. The gap grows wider every year.
How do I overstate Chicago economically/business wise? it has the 2nd highest number of fortune 500 companies HQ'd in the area, 2nd highest number of largest private companies HQ'd in its area, the largest market, the actual most likely most important market in the country (commodities and futures market), the third largest GDP in the country (and it is growing, not shrinking), etc. How is this overstated? Anybody who knows anything about business and economics knows Chicago is a very powerful metro. I cannot believe you would even think that it's merely an edge. Honestly name some companies in the Toronto area that can compete with the likes of a Boeing.
Most people have no idea how big the business climate is in the Chicago area. This is not an overstatement. You'd be foolish to ignore it completely.
Need I remind you that you are completely discussing irrelevant measures based on what the actual OP asked
Quote:
Which is the most-powerful, culturally-significant, world-class city??
This is about being powerful, and also culturally significant. Toronto might have better livability - guess what, the livability is better than almost every city in the world. That doesn't mean it's the more powerful than every city it's more livable than. If your entire argument for being more powerful and culturally significant is population and livability, then you have no actual point and you fail to even discuss on the most basic of levels which is politics, business, economics, and culture.
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Those words didn't come from me. 