Toronto vs Chicago vs (gulp) Montréal.... (live, best, state)

[edwardsyzzurphands]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wouldn't be so dismissive. Almost all of the world's greatest and finest dishes have modest origins with the "people".

Stuff that has been mentioned as Chicago's signature dishes sometimes gets refined and morphs into something great. The people's food is the launching pad for great stuff. (In most cases, fine original cuisine can't thrive without it.)

This is not to say that it will happen with every dish. But it's difficult for fine, locally-focused cuisine to germinate without a unique local base cuisine.

It's kind of like poutine which is junk food but has led to multiple finer incarnations with fine cheeses, demi-glace and other sauces, expensive and imported meats, etc. It's not the construction worker's poutine anymore.

BTW I do agree about Toronto's international food scene. But 99% of the time that's simply replicating the best Chinese from China, Thai from Thailand, Abyssinian from Abyssinia, etc.

All of which is good and very fun to sample. But some will say it's lacking on the uniqueness side.

+1!

Quality is much more important than quantity. Now if you have both at play you have a perfect storm, but that only manifests itself in these US and Canadian cities occasionally and very rarely. I would argue that this is the case in Toronto when it comes to food from the Subcomtinent and China. But unfortunately has not spread to other types of cuisine.

I use the example of myself and my wife when speaking about this. We are West Indian and there are West iNdian restaurants from each of our respective countries of birth scattered throughout Toronto but 99% of it is terrible. Not even passable but terrible, bland and for lack of a better word whitewashed for the local palate.
This is similar to how much my palate changed after living in the Middle East and then trying middle eastern food in Toronto. Extremely poor.

This I suspect is the case in Chicago and Montreal as well. The difference is both Chicago and Montreal have unique cuisine that spans low to high brow that is tough to replicate elsewhere. Then you also have the international foods in all three that you can eat in a pinch if you have a craving. The question I ask is what types of foods available in each of these cities can you not find in the others? I suspect monteal and chicago have more than Toronto.

[Acajack]

In a previous life I used to show people from various parts of the world around Canada and its cities.


We usually had the program set out for us by the local tourism authority.


In Toronto we often took people to the "best dim sum this side of Guangzhou", or Joseph and the AmazingTechnolicor Dreamcoat starring Donny Osmond down at the Winter Garden...


Every once in a while, a foreign visitor would ask... "yeah, but... what about Canadian cuisine/stuff?"

[UScityUrbanCores]

Originally Posted by mooguy

Chicago is at a disadvantage compared to Toronto in that Americans continue to flee to the Sun Belt and in Canada there is no option for that so they head to the biggest city and one of the nation's more benign climates. Toronto is a hub of immigration which means a lot in Canada as most of our population growth is due to immigrants having a significantly lower birth rate than the US.

These are things that make Chicago maintaining it's stature certainly difficult but the city has benefits that few others can offer.
Great restaurants, shopping, cultural amenities that only NY/SF/Boston/Wash/LA can compare to but unlike all those cities, Chicago is affordable. Chicago should build on these strengths.

There is, however, one thing that makes the city VERY unappealing and only Chicago can take the blame for...........it's frightening crime rate. The city can try to sugar coat it or say "it's better than .............." but that is absolutely no excuse.
The crime in the city is nothing short of horrifying. It's racial segregation, socio/economic stratification, and poor public education system are mostly to blame but that's up to the city & state to do something about.

The city will not maintain {little alone increase} it's stature until the issue of crime and race is given 110% attention and not invariably written off as a "black problem." If the city is to raise it's importance to it's glory days then this is an essential step. Chicago is a great city but it's crime levels have given the city a black-eye and done enormous damage to the city's reputation both domestic and foreign.

I will comment to this post as you were a fairer poster in this thread and WERE NOT Hell-Bent on Totally bashing and calling the vs. city in this thread to yours.

This THREAD many times has gotten more intense in lessening and inferring Chicago is a Failed State (City).
Most in the thread are NOT taking the time to even read through the others post and Links (web-sights) given to show the opposing city's issues also. So there is NO ADDRESSING Toronto's issues I read about and we in the US DO NOT HEAR much on Toronto in our news at all. Your former Mayor's antics was the most we ever got. But Chicago gets bashed for things from a Liberal punching bag, example for a Gun control failure to giving the US President Obama in our media especially political opposing sides in the media. Canadians especially in Ontario get it all.

The points you make are True in degrees that affect BOTH CITIES but especially Chicago and US cities. From Chicago having rising sunbelt and west coast cities on the rise and gaining Midwest residents for various reasons with more severe WINTERS a #1 reason.

No one can defend crime. Blame can be assigned and blamed on many factors all of which share in its reasons. Chicago has been a TALE OF TWO CITIES for decades, even most of its history. You read about how our cities were in past centuries. Like the movie "Gangs of New York" showed. You wonder how the nation survived. Corruption and crime nothing new for sure.

In reading posted links of others on Toronto. IT HAS ITS OWN ISSUES TOO. Reading this one alone was EYE-OPENING. Though it was written before the Pan-Am games the games went on and as they went on gained more Torontonians going to the venues. Early on they were not. But no failures. As RIO all still had a successful games despite issues that were never drastic to the games.

But the article still highlights issues of Toronto maybe growing pains.
Jesse Hirsh • Toronto is a Failed State

The list these attributes of a FAILED STATE. Could still be many US cities too. If Toronto has less? Just consider yourself lucky. Just in RACIAL Issues alone as especially northern cities in the states have.
Some things listed as Toronto issues in the link

-The loss of control of its territory: the condo boom in Toronto has led to a massive cash grab and development frenzy that demonstrates how the city is not in control over its own territory.

-Erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions: the city has not been able to make a proper transit decision in decades, or at least one that it can stick to. There are countless other decisions that are avoided, neglected, and simply ignored.

-Corruption and criminality, and in Toronto both of these are incredibly difficult to measure. An inability to provide public services, also includes police and prosecutorial resources that are inadequate for a city of this size.Toronto’s G20 experience was a case study in the modern failed city state, due to both the criminal actions of the police, and the corruption exhibited by the federal government.

BELOW IS A EXERPT FROM TH LINK WE SEE A LOT OF In city vs. city and General US forums where Toronto is included.

**Canadians, and in particular Torontonians, like to imagine that we’ve got it better than anywhere else. That it would be wrong to compare us to elsewhere, that we could never be a failed state. However it is this arrogance and complacency that has led us here.

This ARROGANCE is seen by some posters mocking ANY CITY TORONTO IS VS. on C-D. Just WAY TOO MUCH to reply to. Many aspects VERY TRUE. But the desire of these TORONTONIANS to DEMAND, **Chicago is in massive decline and de-evolving to some less valued city is FALSE. Some posters are fair. Not going to extreme to BOAST Toronto as Greatest on C-D from San Francisco to Chicago and any sunbelt city.

I have NO INTENTION TO DWELL ON ANYTHING ABOVE. I merely note it was a interesting read on commentary based on ACTUAL FACTORS TORONTO IS FACING. From that link another poster posted.y

BACK TO CHICAGO

RACE in Racial divides when US northern cities had RADICAL Changing demographics in past decades that lead to especially Chicago, having RADICAL DECLINES in previous decades.
Really nothing today in Chicago has the DECLINES that were clearly ongoing all through the 60s and 70s CANADA'S CITIES HAD NONE OF THIS.

So compared to them decades. Chicago really NOT in such a degree of declines or close.
But by the late 50s early 60s the city was totally built out on its borders. The Northwest sides and southwest sides have these mid-century neighborhoods.

Positives the city did since these past decades DEVASTATED a 1/3 of the city had the failed Ghetto Housing Projects REMOVED and WORST Blight of these areas REMOVED all through the 90s and onwards and a REVIGORATED CORE AND NEIGHBORHOODS.
This improved APPEARENCES of the city especially those neighborhoods of blighted damaged housing removed. Empty lots left to revert to grass again.

Visitors see a VIBRANT CITY TODAY. Rebuilt expressways in the 90s greatly were needed and done. Only Lake Shore Drive was not yet.

So despite the CRIME and GANGLAND Murders.
There is a HUGE DEGREE IMPROVEMENTS in how the city looks. Gentrification transformed the city's oldest core neighborhoods into highly desirable today and STILL spreading. DOWNTOWN went through AMAZING RESTORATION to New construction and A WHOLE NEW LIVE IN CORE IT DID NOT HAVE MOST OF ITS HISTORY. Downtown was the Loop with retail and a businesses to work-in not residential at all. Areas around it were Industry and Warehousing.

Ironically these former industrial and mainly Warehousing areas became a ADVANTAGE by the 90s residential BOOM. Much instead of removed. They became NEW LOFT LIVING AREAS with new high-rises
Examples of LOFT AREAS.
Just north of the Chicago river and Loop is River North here. Added to downtown as a FORMER Warehousing area. This now.



ANOTHER VIEW OF ABOVE SHOWING FORMER WAREHOUSING LOFT LIVING NOW.



WAREHOUSING TO LOFTS ALSO WEST OF THE LOOP HERE.



NOW SOUTH OF THE LOOP A LARGE AREA OF CLEARED PAST INDUSTRY CLEARED A DECADE AGO AND GROUND BROKEN ON A HUGE HIGH-RISE NEW NIGHBORHOOD.



AREA NORTH OF RIVER NORTH WHERE LAND WAS MADE AVAILABLE WHEN THE FINAL FAILED HIGH-RISE HOUSING PROJECTS WAS REMOVED MORE THEN SHOWING. GETTING DEVELOPED.

[Atticman]

Originally Posted by UScityUrbanCores

This is true. Especially some 60s 70s (less is more ) Ludwig Mies van der Rohe inspired buildings. Many were a basic box shape. But they still are part of a era of Architecture that is part of the evolution of skyscrapers.

Variety kinds and eras next to each other add such a variety and colors and construction materials even just veneer stonework. Also adds a variety that avoids sameness. Even HEIGHTS of buildings get the BLANDER title. But street-level can avoid much in buildings that have businesses and restaurants that help much. Variety of Architects also avoids SAMENESS.

Building on left is a early 70s Ludwig Mies van der Rohe
inspired buildings. Trumps Tower building in the middle with
20s Wrigley and Tribune buildings right in distance angle of
shot makes them look a lot smaller.




I WAS ADDRESSING BLANDER ARCHITECTURE. BUT WHAT VRIETIES THAT ARE AROUND IT AID
IN SEEING A VIEW AS BLAND AND SAMENESS,

The Toronto Dominion Centre, which began construction in 1964, was also designed by Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and was Toronto's first modern Skyscraper exceeding 200 metres in height.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-Dominion_Centre

[Mr. Burns]

^^

I love big boxy buildings, the original WTC twin towers were my favorite skyscrapers in the world. TD center are my favorite skyscrapers in Toronto.

As for Chicago, you are bashing Toronto for having similar looking buildings a-la Miami, but these all fit that same definition, all the buildings are same looking residential:



I don't see how that's different from Cityplace in Toronto,

[Atticman]

Originally Posted by Othello Is Here

What famous style of architecture or architech came from Toronto known around the world?

Frank Gehry was born in Toronto and has designed a two tower complex which has been approved for construction and will exceed 300 metres in height.



It might not be "known around the world", but Toronto's 'bay-and-gable' style of residential architecture is unique to the city and immediately identifiable as Toronto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay-and-gable

[Mr. Burns]

The discounting of Toronto due to sheer ignorance is hilarious.

"What famous architect has come out of Toronto?"

um you mean Frank Gehry?

This is why Toronto posters are needed on CD, if only for informational purposes. The city is emerging in the psyche of the American mainstream, but there is just so much ignorance.

[Maintainschaos]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

The discounting of Toronto due to sheer ignorance is hilarious.

"What famous architect has come out of Toronto?"

um you mean Frank Gehry?

This is why Toronto posters are needed on CD, if only for informational purposes. The city is emerging in the psyche of the American mainstream, but there is just so much ignorance.

Isn't that kind of what you did here?

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

I think the problem with Chicago in the United States market is that there is nothing it can do that other cities don't already do better.

Before the Chicago fanboys attack me, this is just an observation and could very well be ignorant. Feel free to provide insight.

After which several people provided plenty of examples where your statement wasn't the case, "if only for informational purposes."

[That_One_Guy]

Originally Posted by Atticman

Frank Gehry was born in Toronto and has designed a two tower complex which has been approved for construction and will exceed 300 metres in height.



It might not be "known around the world", but Toronto's 'bay-and-gable' style of residential architecture is unique to the city and immediately identifiable as Toronto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay-and-gable

^^^ I didn't know Gehry was from Toronto! I thought he was French for some reason, lol.

He has a building in Lower Manhattan that's one of my favorites, tied with 56 Leonard for my favorite modern.

Edit: might as well include a pic


It looks very similar to the one planned for Toronto. Gehry is a very skilled architect.

[bostonkid123]

Originally Posted by UScityUrbanCores

I will comment to this post as you were a fairer poster in this thread and WERE NOT Hell-Bent on Totally bashing and calling the vs. city in this thread to yours.

This THREAD many times has gotten more intense in lessening and inferring Chicago is a Failed State (City).
Most in the thread are NOT taking the time to even read through the others post and Links (web-sights) given to show the opposing city's issues also. So there is NO ADDRESSING Toronto's issues I read about and we in the US DO NOT HEAR much on Toronto in our news at all. Your former Mayor's antics was the most we ever got. But Chicago gets bashed for things from a Liberal punching bag, example for a Gun control failure to giving the US President Obama in our media especially political opposing sides in the media. Canadians especially in Ontario get it all.

The points you make are True in degrees that affect BOTH CITIES but especially Chicago and US cities. From Chicago having rising sunbelt and west coast cities on the rise and gaining Midwest residents for various reasons with more severe WINTERS a #1 reason.

No one can defend crime. Blame can be assigned and blamed on many factors all of which share in its reasons. Chicago has been a TALE OF TWO CITIES for decades, even most of its history. You read about how our cities were in past centuries. Like the movie "Gangs of New York" showed. You wonder how the nation survived. Corruption and crime nothing new for sure.

In reading posted links of others on Toronto. IT HAS ITS OWN ISSUES TOO. Reading this one alone was EYE-OPENING. Though it was written before the Pan-Am games the games went on and as they went on gained more Torontonians going to the venues. Early on they were not. But no failures. As RIO all still had a successful games despite issues that were never drastic to the games.

But the article still highlights issues of Toronto maybe growing pains.
Jesse Hirsh • Toronto is a Failed State

The list these attributes of a FAILED STATE. Could still be many US cities too. If Toronto has less? Just consider yourself lucky. Just in RACIAL Issues alone as especially northern cities in the states have.
Some things listed as Toronto issues in the link

-The loss of control of its territory: the condo boom in Toronto has led to a massive cash grab and development frenzy that demonstrates how the city is not in control over its own territory.

-Erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions: the city has not been able to make a proper transit decision in decades, or at least one that it can stick to. There are countless other decisions that are avoided, neglected, and simply ignored.

-Corruption and criminality, and in Toronto both of these are incredibly difficult to measure. An inability to provide public services, also includes police and prosecutorial resources that are inadequate for a city of this size.Toronto’s G20 experience was a case study in the modern failed city state, due to both the criminal actions of the police, and the corruption exhibited by the federal government.

BELOW IS A EXERPT FROM TH LINK WE SEE A LOT OF In city vs. city and General US forums where Toronto is included.

**Canadians, and in particular Torontonians, like to imagine that we’ve got it better than anywhere else. That it would be wrong to compare us to elsewhere, that we could never be a failed state. However it is this arrogance and complacency that has led us here.

This ARROGANCE is seen by some posters mocking ANY CITY TORONTO IS VS. on C-D. Just WAY TOO MUCH to reply to. Many aspects VERY TRUE. But the desire of these TORONTONIANS to DEMAND, **Chicago is in massive decline and de-evolving to some less valued city is FALSE. Some posters are fair. Not going to extreme to BOAST Toronto as Greatest on C-D from San Francisco to Chicago and any sunbelt city.

I have NO INTENTION TO DWELL ON ANYTHING ABOVE. I merely note it was a interesting read on commentary based on ACTUAL FACTORS TORONTO IS FACING. From that link another poster posted.y

BACK TO CHICAGO

RACE in Racial divides when US northern cities had RADICAL Changing demographics in past decades that lead to especially Chicago, having RADICAL DECLINES in previous decades.
Really nothing today in Chicago has the DECLINES that were clearly ongoing all through the 60s and 70s CANADA'S CITIES HAD NONE OF THIS.

So compared to them decades. Chicago really NOT in such a degree of declines or close.
But by the late 50s early 60s the city was totally built out on its borders. The Northwest sides and southwest sides have these mid-century neighborhoods.

Positives the city did since these past decades DEVASTATED a 1/3 of the city had the failed Ghetto Housing Projects REMOVED and WORST Blight of these areas REMOVED all through the 90s and onwards and a REVIGORATED CORE AND NEIGHBORHOODS.
This improved APPEARENCES of the city especially those neighborhoods of blighted damaged housing removed. Empty lots left to revert to grass again.

Visitors see a VIBRANT CITY TODAY. Rebuilt expressways in the 90s greatly were needed and done. Only Lake Shore Drive was not yet.

So despite the CRIME and GANGLAND Murders.
There is a HUGE DEGREE IMPROVEMENTS in how the city looks. Gentrification transformed the city's oldest core neighborhoods into highly desirable today and STILL spreading. DOWNTOWN went through AMAZING RESTORATION to New construction and A WHOLE NEW LIVE IN CORE IT DID NOT HAVE MOST OF ITS HISTORY. Downtown was the Loop with retail and a businesses to work-in not residential at all. Areas around it were Industry and Warehousing.

Ironically these former industrial and mainly Warehousing areas became a ADVANTAGE by the 90s residential BOOM. Much instead of removed. They became NEW LOFT LIVING AREAS with new high-rises
Examples of LOFT AREAS.
Just north of the Chicago river and Loop is River North here. Added to downtown as a FORMER Warehousing area. This now.



ANOTHER VIEW OF ABOVE SHOWING FORMER WAREHOUSING LOFT LIVING NOW.



WAREHOUSING TO LOFTS ALSO WEST OF THE LOOP HERE.



NOW SOUTH OF THE LOOP A LARGE AREA OF CLEARED PAST INDUSTRY CLEARED A DECADE AGO AND GROUND BROKEN ON A HUGE HIGH-RISE NEW NIGHBORHOOD.



AREA NORTH OF RIVER NORTH WHERE LAND WAS MADE AVAILABLE WHEN THE FINAL FAILED HIGH-RISE HOUSING PROJECTS WAS REMOVED MORE THEN SHOWING. GETTING DEVELOPED.

Can you like tone down on the all caps. And try complete sentences that actually make grammatical sense. Like I was seriously trying to read your post but had no idea what you were trying to get at.