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Chicago in the USA is a distant third, behind LA and NYC. The gap grows wider every year. It is nowhere near #2.
Compared to Toronto, as far as business goes, Chicago edges Toronto out, but the gap is very small (both are roughly equally ranked Alpha world cities), and again shrinking every year.
When you combine business with diversity, livability, crime, and growth, Toronto comes out ahead overall versus Chicago. The gap grows wider every year.
You gave a very generic answer. Not addressing actual questions given. It's like a politician in Spin. It just goes 'round Chicago's strengths and positives STILL and improvements to Construction increases and others. Two of you rather stick the knife and twist it. and lessen what Chicago still has? Toronto and most other US cities will gain to take away.
Global Stat indicator organizations place Chicago BELOW Toronto on Future Global Outlook. I and others posted some. Though other US cities are seen as rising above.
But the still do not show Toronto doing so? Some show Chicago RISING in Global Future Outlook. Must be a typo or miscalculations? For Torontonians.
No one is exaggerating Chicago here. You want to PROMOTE DRASTIC CHICAGO DECLINES. Signs don't say the declines are going to devastated the city and its status sorry. But surely the City and State have major issues.
Chicago remained #7 Toronto #17 dropping from #13 in Global Current Rank and
Chicago rising to #11 from #10 and Toronto #18 rising from #20 in Future Outlook Rank.
No one is exaggerating Chicago in stats it maintains. Sorry. A couple of you seem to want to give it Last Rites (Catholic death bed prayers) and order its Tombstone.
Last edited by UScityUrbanCores; 11-13-2016 at 04:31 PM..
How do I overstate Chicago economically/business wise? it has the 2nd highest number of fortune 500 companies HQ'd in the area, 2nd highest number of largest private companies HQ'd in its area, the largest market, the actual most likely most important market in the country (commodities and futures market), the third largest GDP in the country (and it is growing, not shrinking), etc. How is this overstated? Anybody who knows anything about business and economics knows Chicago is a very powerful metro. I cannot believe you would even think that it's merely an edge. Honestly name some companies in the Toronto area that can compete with the likes of a Boeing.
Most people have no idea how big the business climate is in the Chicago area. This is not an overstatement. You'd be foolish to ignore it completely.
Need I remind you that you are completely discussing irrelevant measures based on what the actual OP asked
This is about being powerful, and also culturally significant. Toronto might have better livability - guess what, the livability is better than almost every city in the world. That doesn't mean it's the more powerful than every city it's more livable than. If your entire argument for being more powerful and culturally significant is population and livability, then you have no actual point and you fail to even discuss on the most basic of levels which is politics, business, economics, and culture.
You said Chicago was arguably #2 in the USA. This is overstating. Especially from someone who claims so much knowledge in business and economics to put others down.
New York City and Los Angeles wipe the floor with Chicago in almost every economic and cultural influence metric, and their populations are also both significantly larger and growing rapidly. The Chicago you've got in mind was 20-30 years ago. Since then the city has declined to distant 3rd, with NYC and LA taking up more of the influence, and the remaining influence increasingly distributed among SF, DC, Houston, and even Seattle. Chicago has waned in the United States.
Placing Chicago in anything but distant 3rd in the USA is overstating.
Toronto has 5 of Canada's largest banks headquartered in it, with assets totalling $3.26 trillion. Boeing has assets totalling $94 billion. McDonalds is at $38 billion. Walgreens is at $72 billion.
Toronto has the continent's third largest stock exchange, and the world's largest energy and mining exchange. Most of the world's gold is traded through Toronto.
Toronto is a financial city, it is irrelevant whether or not Boeing or McDonalds are headquartered in it. It plays a large role in NA and in the world as far as finance and banking goes. It is also the financial and cultural gateway to the market of an entire first world country, which is why it is an alpha world city. You want to advertise in the Canadian market? You go through media companies based in Toronto. You want to distribute your product in Canada? You go through distribution companies/networks based in Toronto. You want to manage your revenue from the Canadian market? You go through banks based in Toronto. Be you Apple or Boeing or General Motors or Samsung or Toyota.
Discounting Toronto speaks only to ignorance about Toronto, it is where it is for a reason, even if that reason is not immediately apparent from a traditionally American perspective. It's not all just about livability and low crime, both of which Toronto has in spades as well.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 11-13-2016 at 04:49 PM..
You said Chicago was arguably #2 in the USA. This is overstating. Especially from someone who claims so much knowledge in business and economics to put others down.
New York City and Los Angeles wipe the floor with Chicago in almost every economic and cultural influence metric, and their populations are also both significantly larger and growing rapidly. The Chicago you've got in mind was 20-30 years ago. Since then the city has declined to distant 3rd, with NYC and LA taking up more of the influence, and the remaining influence increasingly distributed among SF, DC, Houston, and even Seattle. Chicago has waned in the United States.
Placing Chicago in anything but distant 3rd in the USA is overstating.
Toronto has 5 of Canada's largest banks headquartered in it, with assets totalling $3.26 trillion. Boeing has assets totalling $94 billion. McDonalds is at $38 billion. Walgreens is at $72 billion.
Toronto has the continent's third largest stock exchange, and the world's largest energy and mining exchange. Most of the world's gold is traded through Toronto.
Toronto is a financial city, it is irrelevant whether or not Boeing or McDonalds are headquartered in it. It plays a large role in NA and in the world as far as finance and banking goes. It is also the financial and cultural gateway to the market of an entire first world country, which is why it is an alpha world city.
Discounting Toronto speaks only to ignorance about Toronto, it is where it is for a reason, even if that reason is not immediately apparent from a traditionally American perspective. It's not all just about livability and low crime, both of which Toronto has in spades as well.
No one is diminishing Toronto with NEGATIVE RHETORIC Saying its STATS Do no matter. So why can you say Chicago's stats Do Not? and Global Ranks? Is this ALL 2 of you are going to keep posting?
Again, No one is exaggerating Chicago in stats it maintains. Sorry. A couple of you seem to want to give it Last Rites (Catholic death bed prayers) and order its Tombstone. Is this your aim? Seems so. Or should the rest of us agree Chicago may as well be put out of its misery in all you listed as negatives and declines?
No one is diminishing Toronto with NEGATIVE RHETORIC Saying its STATS Do no matter. So why can you say Chicago's stats Do Not? and Global Ranks?
I have never said Chicago's stats don't matter.
I am saying
a) Chicago has been in decline (this is irrefutable and well documented), with other cities catching up to it. Toronto will be (if it isn't already) the first of these cities to catch up to and surpass Chicago in the coming years.
b) Chicago at anywhere but distant 3rd in the USA is overstatement.
c) The gap between Chicago and Toronto as far as business goes is very small, and shrinking year by year.
That's it.
I am not saying that Chicago is not important or on its deathbed or Detroit.
And I showed you numerous indicators that show otherwise. Sure, it might outshine Chicago in livability (everybody knows that, this isn't presenting anything new) but Chicago is no slouch on this either for the most part. No single, sane person who knows anything about global business would ever say that Toronto is above Chicago on a global scale as far as business goes. And really nobody does, considering the economic rankings of the cities always have Chicago as either the #2 most powerfully economic/business area in North America behind NYC or 3rd (sometimes behind either LA or SF).
So I am curious - what companies are based in the Toronto area that can compete with what is based in the Chicago area? I am talking about companies that do business in many different places that everybody knows about like Boeing or a McDonald's. Are you also going to tell me that the TSX is more important than the CBOT/CBOE, literally the largest market in North America, too now?
I like how you are trying to change the subject. I'll play along.
Well the world's safest banking system in the world (Canadian banks) are headquartered in Toronto. That alone should stand for something that Chicago doesn't have. Remember the recession from the Bush administration? Well, The Canadian banking system was was unharmed. Not a scratch. In fact, the Canadian banking system has been ranked safest in the world for 8 years straight.
I'm not gonna sit here and list Canadian companies to American companies. There would be no point. Boeing and McDonalds headquartered there is cool and all, but it still doesn't hide the fact the Chicago and the state of Illinois are in decline. What does Chicago have that can compete with the safest banking system on earth? McDonalds? LOL. The Incredible Shrinking Illinois | Chicago magazine | Politics & City Life February 2016
And there are more to socioeconomics than livability. In just about most socioeconomic factors, Toronto clearly outshines Chicago.
I have never said Chicago's stats don't matter.
I am saying
a) Chicago has been in decline (this is irrefutable and well documented), with other cities catching up to it.
b) Chicago at anywhere but distant 3rd in the USA is overstatement.
c) The gap between Chicago and Toronto as far as business goes is very small, and shrinking year by year.
That's it.
I am not saying that Chicago is not important or on its deathbed or Detroit.
Great, then the constant postings of 2 posters here. Especially one other. Some of us see as demeaning way to drastically. No one said #2 in all things LA should be given. Also the San Francisco metro is one that really will rise over Toronto in Stats and Global Rank. You 2 tried to lessen San Francisco JUST LIKE HERE. It's a pattern for any city up vs. Toronto. Now that's NO exaggeration.
Great, then the constant postings of 2 posters here. Especially one other. Some of us see as demeaning way to drastically. No one said #2 in all things LA should be given. Also the San Francisco metro is one that really will rise over Toronto in Stats and Global Rank. You 2 tried to lessen San Francisco JUST LIKE HERE. It's a pattern for any city up vs. Toronto. Now that's NO exaggeration.
If San Francisco rises over Toronto, it will rise over Chicago too. But as far as power in the financial sector goes, SF's growth will always be hindered by Los Angeles next door. LA will always remain as the gateway city to California.
When did I put down Chicago? Everything I posted was from links publicly available on the internet or is a widely know fact.
And where did I say Toronto is the only good city and I hate Chicago? Those words didn't come from me.
I already said many times that I visit Chicago annually (was there in twice since last November) and my first post in this thread said it's a battle between T.O. and the Chi.
You must be confusing me with someone else.
You and one other certainly Turned the thread to a battle by posting ALL negatives you could find on a internet search on Chicago's issues. Others merely DEFEND with recent Stats, Charts, and Links. But you kept the negative Anti-Chicago rhetoric coming. Your out is its freely in the news and on the internet. But you do realize you are really taking it to extreme in all these post that keep coming by you.
**But since you say you visit annually more then once. Especially if in the summer? What exactly is ALL THE DECLINES You personally saw and if you saw.
no new construction around like infill and new skyscrapers especially in the cities core?
Failing infrastructure in numerous ways you can specify?
a totally inadequate and antiquated transit system, elevated trains to buses
expressways crumbling?
unclean streets in neighborhoods or downtown?
see closed businesses in numerous areas you visited?
no nightlife/restaurant scene at least comparable to Toronto or the other major US cities?
did you drive to or fly into the city?
take the elevated/subway from the airport or drive to the destination, downtown or staying with someone?
We know the Chicago has no Trams or Trolley system. Its propane run buses with no fumes. I'm personally not fond of seeing over-head trolley wires. See a lot of that in Philly. **But Tell us your firsthand impressions on the city. Let's get off this negative Stats and Links posting. You know it is infuriating and over-done already by two of you. Tell us if,
you ventured into some neighborhoods?
was it mainly downtown or other areas?
did you venture into gentrified areas? Or the bungalow-belt as 1/3 of the city or areas south in decline?
was it a few days or just for business and back home?
Though many areas look pretty good even with lost housing in the southern areas. Most blight was removed, though these areas generally lack retail and the gangland crime is high. American big cities will have these areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18
And for Chicago it looks like the negative outweigh the positive. If you don't mention the negative it looks Chicago is all roses which it isn't. Everything has to be mentioned to give the real perception of the city's direction. The same has to be said for Toronto and Montreal.
I can on go on but I'm not here for a 'vendetta' as you say. I'm to point out all that glitters and gold in Chicago as some you are making people think. I know you are defending your city, but you can't deny what is going on over there. To sit here in denial and act like Chicago is not going through it is just wrong. The city is in decline. There is more to a health of a city than slight decreases in unemployment and GDP numbers.
No Chicago defender denied these issues. Sorry but to continually post all them post so negative . It's A bit overboard to say the least.
I've read how some Torontonians don't appreciate any negatives or things in the news on perceptions mentioned and links used. Also reality of all that glitters is not just glass High-rises and Skyscrapers (rather then use gold). Especially posted in the Toronto forum too, even by other locals in critique of Toronto. Most times the staunch Toronto homers, just discount and far lessen any of them.
It's many staunch Toronto homers. Who promote Toronto as glittering like gold literally and rising fast OVER AMERICAN CITIES. But really time to compare to Asian cities as Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tokyo, Sydney and Jakarta? For amount of high-rise living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
No one is saying Chicago is a third world ghetto city or even Detroit.
Just that Chicago has been declining overall. It's declining from a lofty place, but declining nonetheless. And this is relative. You may have investment and economic growth, but other places have more of it.
The consequence is it gives other competing cities including Toronto, but also SF, DC, and Houston an opportunity to eventually catch up and surpass Chicago, which is exactly what is happening.
Makes me wonder? What exactly is This "lofty place" Chicago has and is declining from? NYC surpassed it a century ago and LA metro population many decades ago already too.
We surely know our Sunbelt and large Costal cities have more in some Stats.
One surely can say US sunbelt cities like Houston and Atlanta can boast a rising population and GDP. But most C-D posters clearly showed in a thread of Houston surpassing Chicago in a few years to decade. Clearly denoted areas Chicago IS NOT IN DECLINE IN and a built environment Houston and Downtown are perhaps decades away if ever. Chicago overcame much adversity in its history I addressed already. Al Capone era to 60s70s radical racial change and blight. No one can take the history of American Architecture in its built environment and its earliest to newest skyscrapers show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18
Exactly! This is exactly what is happening and various government statistics indicate these trends. But when we mention it, it's a problem for Chicagoans in this thread.
Economics is a very broad word. Socio-economics for example is where Toronto clearly outshines Chicago. The same can be said about business data. It's a broad term.
It is really the post after post with Links off the internet 2 Torontonians used to lessen Chicago with declines to no way out of going down a sewer. You need 2 hands of fingers+ to count them post after post of demeaning that were far from just trying to show all that glitters is not gold in Chi-Town. Honestly it really became way over the top. Some of us felt provoked to say what we shouldn't have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
There are no doubt aspects of the city that are in decline - I would never dispute that, however as a whole the city is not actually in decline. The public school system is mismanaged - everyone knows that, but it doesn't mean that the city is in decline as a result. Most of the suburban school systems are not like this at all either and are actually quite good. There is a reason why tons of teachers in the suburbs at public schools make 6 figure salaries and many schools will not hire teachers unless they have at least a masters degree.
As far as homicides go and shootings go, that's unfortunate and as someone who knows a lot about the data and how isolated these are, it's unfortunate for those who live in it. However, let's not ignore the other crimes that are more important to daily life. Crimes like aggravated assaults, robberies, etc. Anybody who thinks these crimes aren't more of a daily reality to people all over the world are ridiculous. These make up the vast majority of crimes, but the crime rates for Chicago on these categories are actually lower than most people think. The aggravated assault rate so far this year is lower than that of San Francisco, NYC, Houston, etc. If you want to know where to get the data, I'll gladly show you considering I made a thread about it before using official government sources for every city. Almost every single crime category in the city is down from a decade ago and sometimes it's down big.
The fact of the matter is that Chicago has a big growth in the percentage of people living in it that are college educated, a big growth in both per capita income and median household income, the GDP has a faster growth rate than NYC and Philadelphia and about the same as Boston, unemployment is at near 10 year lows, companies who were HQ'd in the area are not leaving the city/area, and in fact they are MOVING to the area/city from other areas of the country. If a city and area was actually in decline, almost none of this would be happening.
As always. Great Post and my sentiments also. Still my favorite Big city I visit yearly. We surely know all is not Gold glittering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18
And there are more to socioeconomics than livability. In just about most socioeconomic factors, Toronto clearly outshines Chicago.
No one is denying this to Toronto. No Racial issues as the States and Chicago. You just deny Chicago can have some virtues to speak of yet. Others address or give CURRENT STATS of.
It is like again what you guys did in a Toronto vs. San Francisco thread. Full Frontal, take no prisoners, go for their jugular like here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
If San Francisco rises over Toronto, it will rise over Chicago too. But as far as power in the financial sector goes, SF's growth will always be hindered by Los Angeles next door. LA will always remain as the gateway city to California.
Otherwise SF is a complete wild card.
They all have a piece of the pie. What SF metro stands out on with Silicone Valley. LA can't touch. But still not about population rise, now is it?
Last edited by UScityUrbanCores; 11-13-2016 at 05:20 PM..
If San Francisco rises over Toronto, it will rise over Chicago too. But as far as power in the financial sector goes, SF's growth will always be hindered by Los Angeles next door. LA will always remain as the gateway city to California.
Otherwise SF is a complete wild card.
His username and join date seem pretty 'troll-ish' (if you know what I mean).
Facts are posted that indicate Chicago and the state of Illinois' decline, but if they are not what certain posters want to hear, then they are not happy.
There are several upon several threads with high participation in the Chicago & Illinois forums that were pointed out to me which range from people saying they are leaving Chicago/Illinois, complaining about the crime, property taxes, segregation, population decline, and so on. It's a reality that people up in here try to ignore.
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and lessen what Chicago still has? Toronto and most other US cities will gain to take away. 
You want to PROMOTE DRASTIC CHICAGO DECLINES. Signs don't say the declines are going to devastated the city and its status sorry. But surely the City and State have major issues. 
and Global Ranks? Is this ALL 2 of you are going to keep posting? 
Those words didn't come from me. 
You need 2 hands of fingers+ to count them post after post of demeaning that were far from just trying to show all that glitters is not gold in Chi-Town. Honestly it really became way over the top. Some of us felt provoked to say what we shouldn't have. 