DFW High Schools ranked by SAT 2012-2013 (Dallas, Plano: 2014, neighborhood)

[biafra4life]

Originally Posted by HockDad

I guess I am just looking at the big picture- which is the best school based on objective criteria: SAT scores, NMSFs, college matriculation. I am not rating schools on how they are doing with "what they got." WW might be doing a fine job educating the kids based on the obstacles they face, but that does not mean it is a "great" school.

My philosophy is consistent with colleges as well. I don't rate UNC as a better college than OU based on the amount of funding from the state, the size of endowments, etc. (resources they receive) Instead, I rate UNC as a top public school based on objective criteria.

Under your philosophy, Tech might be the best public college in Texas since they have less resources than UT and A&M, but still do a pretty good job of educating their students.

Good points sir, all good points. Yes, when looking at the cold, hard facts, Woodrow isnt a "great" school. It is what it is. I just like to point out the extenuating factors.

One thing that no one ever seems to talk about. When I was attending TCU, Paschal High is right down the street from us. That school gets raves all the time. I dont know the numbers, but from eyeballing the students over the years I'm going to guess that it is a majority minority school also. Why is this school not studied by more folks at DISD and indeed everywhere? They seem to perform pretty well for an urban school.

[HockDad]

Originally Posted by Walter Benjamin

TC80, that was an extremely persuasive and thoroughly researched post! Thanks and good luck with the New Year's resolution

The best post of the year. Good job TC80!

[barnabasc]

You can evaluate all the figures you can find, but Woodrow Wilson has some magic that cannot be pigeonholed. People really love that school. Alums want to send their kids there for the same experience. Even if they are years apart, they all find an instant friend in other graduates.

I know a senior who is accepted to Duke. He is a lead in this year's musical, is in the show choir, stars on the baseball team and is on the mock trial team among his many activities. He loves it and his brother is following along. Their mother is now teaching at the school.

The school has a large section of special ed and the regional deaf school. There really is a variety of students. I don't think you can compare kids from Fair Park with Plano. All poor kids are not the same.

[HockDad]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

Good points sir, all good points. Yes, when looking at the cold, hard facts, Woodrow isnt a "great" school. It is what it is. I just like to point out the extenuating factors.

One thing that no one ever seems to talk about. When I was attending TCU, Paschal High is right down the street from us. That school gets raves all the time. I dont know the numbers, but from eyeballing the students over the years I'm going to guess that it is a majority minority school also. Why is this school not studied by more folks at DISD and indeed everywhere? They seem to perform pretty well for an urban school.

Paschal is amazing. They have a school within a school and the NMSF numbers are always strong. Like WW, it has some really affluent homes in the neighborhoods, but also some scary sections on Berry Avenue. If you go to the Taco Bell across the street you will realize that the kids are nothing like the HP kids in Dallas, but their NMSF numbers are similar.

[GripeWater]

Originally Posted by barnabasc

I know a senior who is accepted to Duke. He is a lead in this year's musical, is in the show choir, stars on the baseball team and is on the mock trial team among his many activities. He loves it and his brother is following along. Their mother is now teaching at the school."

Good for you that you know one. By the way how is your ONE Asian friend? Keeping your circle diverse?

[/quote] I don't think you can compare kids from Fair Park with Plano. All poor kids are not the same.[/quote]

I didn't know there are 50 shades of poor.

[theloneranger]

Originally Posted by GripeWater

I didn't know there are 50 shades of poor.

"Poor" does have many shades. "Economically disadvantaged" as measured by standardized tests covers up to 185% of the poverty level. There is a huge difference between 185% of the poverty line and 100% of the poverty line--at one, you can meet basic needs, though you certainly don't have many or any extras in your life; at the other, it's pretty much impossible.

There is a census tract in South Dallas where the median household income is $14k per year. That's the poverty line for a single person, and far below the poverty line for more than one person. Half of all the households is a huge number, and that doesn't include homeless people (many of whom have children who are educated in the public schools). Plano does not have housing projects with mass concentrations of poor people. Plano doesn't have blocks on end where people drink malt liquor and use drugs in the streets. There is a vast difference between poverty in Plano and poverty in Fair Park. It doesn't mean that it's easy to be poor in Plano, by any means, but it's a different world.

Concentrated poverty does have a statistically significant effect on a school's performance and the performance of poor kids. Poor kids, in general, do far better in schools where there is not a large concentration of poverty; there are varying explanations for this.

I'm not 100% where the accusations of me being a Woodrow booster came from, or if they were particularly directed at me; I'm a Jesuit grad (after 9 years of DISD, 5 of them in the TAG magnets) from the WT White attendance zone. I think DISD gets written off by far too many people, and Woodrow is undoubtedly one of the three best comprehensive high schools in DISD, but that's the extent of my allegiance to Woodrow.

[synchronicity]

Originally Posted by theloneranger

I'm not 100% where the accusations of me being a Woodrow booster came from, or if they were particularly directed at me.

Not you, a frequent poster on this board named "Lakewooder", which should say enough right there. I like him but he does wear the rose colored glasses when it comes to Lakewood and Woodrow.

FWIW, for all of 1st and most of 2d grade my kidlet attended a DISD elementary (in the WT White feeder area) with ~80% economically disadvantaged, and overall performed very well and generally enjoyed her time there. We moved near the end of 2d grade and although she continues to get a quality education (and is just "somewhat above average" rather than being a superstar), I can't really tell if she's "learning more" than she did at her old school or how much "better" her teachers are or whatnot, and she's commented that it was easier to make friends at her old school. Granted, it's elementary so any concerns are much different than in high school.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by Ramona72

And by the way, once you start getting down into where DISD's comprehensives show up, Woodrow is behind Skyline, Hillcrest, White, North Dallas, and Thomas Jefferson (?!?). Remember, this is just the economically disadvantaged kids. Would love to hear an analysis for why this might be.

Unlike its SAT data, most of DISD's testing data and school ratings come from state tests and are not very useful because the state norms are forever changing. Trying to pick a school on its state rating is worthless and based on TAKS and now STAAR isn't very good.

I looked at the 2012-13 economically disadvantaged kids SAT scores against another nationally normed number that I could find on the DISD website, the 2012 percentage of ED kids scoring at or above the 40th percentile on the ITBS reading. I looked at the 5th grade, oldest grade I found available.

I didn't find a significant correlation between Skyline HS, Hillcrest HS, and White HS' ED SAT scores and their feeder elementary schools' scores (Hillcrest having the strongest correlation of the three high schools). You have some standout 5th grade ITBS scores from Dan Rogers, Anne Frank, and Lakewood, but Skyline's were terrible and their ED SAT scores were the highest. The ITBS scores weren't correlated to school ratings. Some Exemplary 2011 school had great ITBS scores while other Exemplary schools had terrible ITBS scores.

If the Dallas school ratings were based on taking the full ITBS yearly in October and the ERB yearly in April, you could have a good guess at how the schools are doing over time. STAAR results and college readiness or SEI ratings don't offer much to parents. If you look at the Lakewood feeder elementary schools, they all look good or great based on STAAR and state ratings. Why are Woodrow and Long's scores so average to bad if these are such good schools?

[Lakewooder]

Well, I've been out of town - I don't usually like to invoke international data roaming on my phone, so I haven't been checking the forum. So I log in today and got this "reputation" message: "sorry Woodrow didn't live up to great expectations in the 2012 SAT scores - hmmmmm????"

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but let me just say, yes I do wear rose colored glasses (actually wWw Red) and I am a cheerleader for good ol' Woodrow. To me these scores are not dramatic or devastating news, though I admit I'd like to see better ones. Looking at it from another perspective, the news is that Woodrow beat suburban schools in Mesquite, Garland, Irving etc.. and was less than 100 points behind a Frisco high school...

As I have posted on other threads, we have taken steps to insure better SAT prep this year, as it went by the wayside using the district program, rather than the school-based one we had several years ago (those teachers retired). We now have seven or eight sections of SAT prep as a regular class. So I am hoping there will be improvement next year. Also the demographic changes are coming up from lower grades and attendance zone changes (moving a poorer school, Roberts, to Madison) will not be fully implemented until next year.

I'm glad that some kids who would have never taken the test back in my day are now doing so, regardless of the scores. At least they are exposed to it and getting a chance to see how they can improve. So what if they only get to community college? Many times they are the first in their family to attend college. Most on this forum could probably not imagine parents being against their kids going to college, but it happens all the time. I saw on Facebook where a student was complaining that his mother threw a screaming fit that her 'baby' was leaving Dallas to go to Denton to UNT. She did not want him to leave the nest...I personally had friends whose parents would not hear of such a thing. It doesn't make them bad people, it's just a different mindset. I am still sad about a couple who would have been superstars but settled...then again others have done very well in "lesser careers" or running their own businesses. They are happy people and have nice families. Either way, I am proud to have them as friends.

The fact remains that there are many affluent families who choose Woodrow over private and magnet schools. So just ask yourself why they are doing this. If it were that awful would they stay?

[GripeWater]

The fact remains that there are many affluent families who choose Woodrow over private and magnet schools. So just ask yourself why they are doing this. If it were that awful would they stay?

I'm asking myself why most affluent families choose to do otherwise. If WW was as good why would they spend a fortune.