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Well really I'm not too sure Russia is comfortable with the workings of democracy. I don't think she looks at events with that point of view as the US and Europe does. The concept of 'freedom' is a bit different.
Of course Russia and Ukraine, and others, are not familiar with democracy, it has been only 20 years since they first adapted it. It took the US over 100 years and a civil war to even grant equal rights to all of its citizens. Yet everyone expects a thousand year old area to operate as an efficient democracy? Ridiculous.
Our own US Congress cannot even manage to pass the simplest items like a budget, yet we expect 20 year old democracies to operate in a highly efficient manner?
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Originally Posted by travric
What I do agree with wholeheartedly is the point on not believing in 'soft power'. But on the note of Russian transparency, Russia knows full well that the possibility of military intervention in so-called Russian 'spheres' by Europe and the US is highly unlikely so she would no doubt feel free to take military steps to control situations.
Yes, unlikely, but the US is more than willing to put troops in areas for "training". The US was more than happy to back Saakashvili while he was oppressing his political opponents and ethnic minorities in Georgia. A bet if Ukraine signed with the EU and there was an open rift with Russia, the US will have troops in there the next day for "training".
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Originally Posted by travric
In one way it is a strength but in the long run it presents grave problems for its image, i.e. the big Bear eating up and working over its neighbors. WE've seen this before in its history. And when that happens democratic countries 'eat' all that up pointing and confirming Russian belligerence This is usually the same game played all the time.
Not really seeing it; where has Russia "eat" up its neighbors? Sure, the Russian Empire expanded, but so did the US at that time. Since 1991, have not seen Russia really do anything other than leverage its economic resources, the same as any country would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
And we know states always act in their interest and according to how to they perceive their identity. Is Russia weak or strong? I cannot evaluate completely. Perhaps the pundits can do it with more info. But we can certainly see she has problems when other nearby states yell a few 'No's' about how things are going.
Russia has become the Israel of the area; anytime a country has a problem, Russia is to blame. Iran blames Israel for its issues, Ukraine blames Russia for its issues.
Also, former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact countries have basically disavowed any association with the USSR, yet many of there people were full participants in the USSR, the good and bad. They act as the victim, holding Russia as the sole responsible party for the USSR's actions, yet ignore the numerous people in their own countries who were full participants in these actions. Even Georgia managed to cast off Stalin as its own, knowing full well the Georgian was responsible for millions of deaths, mostly Russians and Ukrainians, yet even for the Ukrainian famine, Russia still gets the blame.
If history shows anything, it should be Russia being weary of Europe, as Russia has been the subject of invasion by Europe for who knows how long; Napoleon to Germany, Europe has caused a lot of destruction in Russia.
"Brave revolutionaries", "nationalists", blah blah blah. Tells me something about how biased you are.
The international community is needed not so much to stop fists flying in the Ukrainian Parliament but to stop Yanukovitch from making the Ukraine a part of the Russian empire, again.
Now, I'm not sure though that the radicals among opposition forces will be satisfied with the deal reached.
Since your "blah-blah" is telling me that you are most likely yet another ex Eastern European ( not the Westerner that you pretend to be,) and there will be not much but gloating and pointing finger at Russia, I don't see a point of arguing with you, but I can bring to your attention that it was only a matter of money to purchase Ukraine. It was a matter of money when the Orange revolution was organized by the US and basically puppet regime has been installed there ( why the West didn't want to purchase Ukraine at that point in time is a good question since Russia had no interest back then,) and it was a question of money yet again during recent EU-Ukrainian negotiations. And before you'll start telling me again that that's just "my opinion only" - here it is for your attention, a good journalism instead of your obsession with Russia.
P.S. Another thing - with all your proclamation of "free Ukraine," I have to point out that poor are not free under the modern idea of democracy, and Ukraine is definitely poor. So the only question is - which master Ukraine is going to serve; the West or Russia.
Not really seeing it; where has Russia "eat" up its neighbors? Sure, the Russian Empire expanded, but so did the US at that time. Since 1991, have not seen Russia really do anything other than leverage its economic resources, the same as any country would.
.......... Ukraine blames Russia for its issues.
Also, former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact countries have basically disavowed any association with the USSR, yet many of there people were full participants in the USSR, the good and bad. They act as the victim, holding Russia as the sole responsible party for the USSR's actions, yet ignore the numerous people in their own countries who were full participants in these actions. Even Georgia managed to cast off Stalin as its own, knowing full well the Georgian was responsible for millions of deaths, mostly Russians and Ukrainians, yet even for the Ukrainian famine, Russia still gets the blame.
If history shows anything, it should be Russia being weary of Europe, as Russia has been the subject of invasion by Europe for who knows how long; Napoleon to Germany, Europe has caused a lot of destruction in Russia.
Ukraine has every right to blame Russia for some issues i.e. The Artifical Famine, Holodomor, 1932-1933
where millions of Ukrainian citizens were deliberately starved to death by Stalin & he deserves the blame.
Georgia did not cast off Stalin, as a matter of fact Russian friendly prime minister, Ivanishvili ordered
the re-instated monuments of Stalin back in 2013 (not sure if they did so or not due to the bad image
it would present to the rest of the world.
However, in Siberia, Russians have plans for a monument of Stalin.
I am not disputing what Germany did during the second World War to Russia however Stalin did pull
a fast one when he seized East Berlin.
Enough with the Cold War mentality already. Rise up from the trenches. There doesn't exist an EU vs Russia mentality anymore. The EU is interested in Russia, wants to do cooperation with Russia and many countries like Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Finland invest a lot in Russia. The EU countries are Russia's most important export partners.
But that's the problem right there - that EU regards Russia as some well-managed "gas volt" - if that's that's the way I can put it, and this problem has little to do with the "Cold war mentality."
Sorry, I don't have much time to get into detailed explanation right now, so I'll re-post here the video of one particular interview that I posted three years ago, with the most important ( and quite relevant to the subject) part of translation here;
"...People who are trying to appeal to public opinion are living with illusions that I don't quite understand. I remember in the fall of 2003, right after the confinement of Khodorkovsky, president Putin went on cruise to all those countries where people were loudly protesting against this confinement; Germany, France, Italy. Putin didn't really offer them all that much; Khodorkovsky's freedom was exchanged for the right to re-export Gazprom's gas. So in such countries as France and Germany that love to bolster so much about the "human rights," Putin wasn't asked any inconvenient questions... but in Italy - the country more disorderly in general, one of the journalists managed to come up with a question and Prime Minister Berluskoni personally rushed to the rescue of comrade Putin. I think that poor journalist didn't really have a chance to proceed with his question; Berlusconi most likely had explained to him a thing or two.
When European folks in high places ( Americans too by the way)... well, when these people - I am not talking about journalists or public figures - but people who are responsible for decisions; so when these people start talking about "human rights" in Russia, the most important thing is to not interrupt them and let them come to the end of their speech. Because at the end of their speech you'll always hear the demand for some kind of economic concessions. All this talk about the "human rights" in Russia is nothing but business, a pressure to move money through slightly different channels - that's all to it. The ruling class in Russia keeps more than half trillion dollars in Western financial system, in Western securities as far as I know...This is a substantial support for the world financial system. (The Russian ruling class) keeps all its assets in the western banks; it's not only their personal dependency on the West, but it's a substantial support for the Western financial system as well. The West of course appreciates its fellow workers, particularly while they manage such big and useful for the West country as Russia.
So when we complain that the ruling class of Russia is robbing country dry, we shouldn't forget that it's the West that gains from this robbery, because practically all the money are shipped to the West and these money support the West. So the West doesn't really need any democracy in Russia, the West doesn't need any modernization in Russia, because as soon as the Russian government will start working for the benefit of Russian population, they'll start shipping money back to Russia and money will leave the West. If Russian government will start modernization of the country - not with lip service, but they will actually do it, then Russia even unintentionally will create competition for the West; the jobs created in Russia will cut the jobs in the West. This is the logic behind the economic development. So when people in high places in the West are talking about "human rights" in Russia, they are using the right words; it's much better of course than something like "Drang nach Osten." Just remember that "human rights in Russia" are nothing more than words. Western values end at the border of Western civilization. Our dear leaders can quack all they want that "Russia is a country of European culture"; while it might be true, the West will never acknowledge it. We'll be always the outsiders for them; we will be always regarded in the same manner as Chinese ( on whom the opium can be pushed,) or the Indians that can be exploited, or the Africans that can be sold in slavery, the Indians that can be exterminated, and you can go down that list. Every culture has definition of "people that belong" and people who don't. So we will be always the outsiders for the West; I am not saying that it's good or bad - it's just a fact. It's a reality of things."
Of course other than mighty and invincible Pu, Russians have their own gurus - there are few of them out there, depending on one's political/cultural orientation.
This particular guy represents the left train of thought ( he is an economist by trade,) so I wasn't too surprised to hear his opinion as full of irony and chuckles as it was, but what really surprised me, was the recent condemnation of the West, that came from the head of very *liberal* ( by Russian standards, that means traditionally very pro-Western) party, who wrote "The impotence of the West" article in his blog recently, referring to a very inadequate reaction of the West to the recent arrest of yet another ecologist in Russia ( weren't you just talking about the "ecological threat" coming from Russia to Finland? )
Ukraine has been ruled by the Austrian/Hungarian Empire and Russia (including regions and
areas which were handed to Poland). What is so wrong with Ukrainians wanting their
country back?
Ukraine has every right to blame Russia for some issues i.e. The Artifical Famine, Holodomor, 1932-1933 where millions of Ukrainian citizens were deliberately starved to death by Stalin & he deserves the blame.
How in the heck is Russia to blame? Russia was not even a country, it was one of Soviet republics. Why not blame Georgia? That is where Stalin hails from. You can state "Georgia is to blame for the Ukrainian famine".
Please explain how Russia, one of the republics, was responsible for the Ukrainian famine when the USSR was led by a Georgian.
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Originally Posted by baileyvpotter
Georgia did not cast off Stalin, as a matter of fact Russian friendly prime minister, Ivanishvili ordered the re-instated monuments of Stalin back in 2013 (not sure if they did so or not due to the bad image it would present to the rest of the world.
Yes, even you blame Russia for Ukrainian issues in the past, letting Georgia off the hook, even letting follow Ukrainians off the hook who took part in instigating the famine. In case you forget, millions of ethnic Russians were also killed under Stalin's regime. You think Ukrainians were the only victim? Heck, more Russians were killed than any other group.
Again, blame Russia game, it is a GEORGIAN who is putting the statue back. How the heck is it Russia's fault that the prime minister of Georgia, a Georgian, is putting a statue back? As I mentioned on other threads, if a toilet does not flush right, Russia gets blamed. You are a perfect example of what I am talking about.
By the way, the statue was there until 2010, so even Saakashvili did not mind it too much, being elected and all in 2004; the statue stood six years. It was taken down only after global media attention after the Russia-Georgia conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baileyvpotter
However, in Siberia, Russians have plans for a monument of Stalin.
A small group want this, every country in the world, including the US, have fringe groups wanting strange things. The US still has schools named after racist group leaders, and state flags with confederate symbols.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baileyvpotter
I am not disputing what Germany did during the second World War to Russia however Stalin did pull a fast one when he seized East Berlin.
How is defeating the enemy, and seizing the capitol "pulling a fast one"? If Germany did not want it, they should have not invaded the Soviet Union, it is real simple. And what happened to E. Germany is nothing compared to the damage Germany did to east Europe and the USSR.
Ukraine has every right to blame Russia for some issues i.e. The Artifical Famine, Holodomor, 1932-1933
where millions of Ukrainian citizens were deliberately starved to death by Stalin
While the famine was not only in Ukraine, but also in other regions of the USSR.
And, by the way, many people in Russia will not be happy with the adding of Ukraine into Russia. They do not understand why they should subsidize Ukraine, as now subsidizing Caucasian republics. Maybe they will be happy only the inclusion of Crimea, which is always been the Russian territory (since then, as the Russian Empire conquered it).
Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 02-22-2014 at 06:31 AM..
And, by the way, many people in Russia will not be happy with the adding of Ukraine into Russia. They do not understand why they should subsidize Ukraine.
Yes.
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