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So, you think police should just silence the protesters? Business as usual till 2015? "Hey kids, sorry for all of that. Let's just forget about everything that just happened. There will be fair elections in a year. I promise *wink*"
I'm sorry, but someone who uses snipers against the opposition has lost the right to rule. Democratically elected or not.
Yes, the police should silence the protesters when they start to turn violent, just as many countries including the US does.
"That morning, the King County Sheriff's Office and Seattle Police Department fired pepper spray, tear gas canisters, stun grenades, and eventually rubber bullets at protesters at several intersections in an attempt to reopen the blocked streets and allow as many WTO delegates as possible through the blockade.[17] At 6th Avenue and Union Street, the crowd threw them back,"
"Overnight, the Governor Gary Locke called in 2 battalions of National Guardsmen, other law enforcement agencies sent support, and before daylight on Wednesday, troops and officers lined the perimeter of the no protest zone. Police surrounded and arrested several groups of would-be protesters (and more than one bystander). Beginning at 9pm, a major clash took place on Broadway in the vicinity of Denny Way, involving rocks, bottles, and police concussion grenades. It did not involve a black bloc, but appears to have included local residents, although it is known that many local residents were treated as protesters, even being teargassed, despite having no part in the protests. Police called in from other cities mistook the typically crowded streets of Capitol Hill as groups of protesters.[18][19] More than 500 people were jailed on Wednesday. Throughout the day, police used tear gas to disperse crowds downtown, although a permitted demonstration organized by the Steelworkers Union was held along the waterfront."
And this was a very mild protest in comparison to Ukraine. What do you think the gov would have done if the Seattle protesters started using weapons, storming gov buildings, and taking police hostage?
So, you think police should just silence the protesters? Business as usual till 2015? "Hey kids, sorry for all of that. Let's just forget about everything that just happened. There will be fair elections in a year. I promise *wink*"
I'm sorry, but someone who uses snipers against the opposition has lost the right to rule. Democratically elected or not.
You don't have understanding about situation in post-soviet countries absolutelly (or trying to show yourself this way) that is why I'm trying to express you that there is no "democratic process" in Ukraine after 2010 like there is no "democratic process" in Russia, in Kazachstan, in Belarus.
Protesters are trying to return this "democratic process" back. And I'm sure it will be returned.
I do not have an understanding? Only lived in psot-Soviet countries for many years, own property there, speak fluent Russian, half of my family being spread out in Ukraine, Russia, and Central Asia, and travel there all the time, let alone all the academic history stuff I have gone through, I assure you I have quite an understanding of the Soviet zone.
Regarding the 2010 elections:
"The first round ballot was held on January 17 and was internationally widely recognized as meeting democratic standards."
"According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine.[155][156][157]"
"The Ukrainian Central Election Commission and international observers found no evidence of significant electoral fraud and said that the voting and counting was fair.[132]"
No, in 2010 the Ukrainian supreme court ruled the 2004 amendments were unconstitutional, thus reversing the amendments put in place in 2004, Yanukovich did not go and do anything. Right or wrong decision?
Firstly, this decision was Yanukovich's decision because supreme court is not independent from president in Ukraine.
Secondary, this decision was shocking and unlawful because several members of supreme court don't have rights to change constitution. Is is a right of 300+ deputies of Verchovna Rada.
Firstly, this decision was Yanukovich's decision because supreme court is not independent from president in Ukraine.
Secondary, this decision was shocking and unlawful because several members of supreme court don't have rights to change constitution. Is is a right of 300+ deputies of Verchovna Rada.
"The Constitutional Court of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Конституційний Суд України) is the sole body of constitutional jurisdiction in Ukraine. The Constitutional Court of Ukraine interprets the Constitution of Ukraine and decides whether laws and other legal acts are constitutional."
Not my words. The amendments were a legal act determined unconstitutional by the constitutional court.
You make some good points being logical and all, but who told you Ukraine as it is today is a "civilized" country where disputes can be resolved by holding elections somewhere in 2015? People are afraid that until that time, once again, they will be adjusted go Russia against their will, and this is obviously not what the majority wants.
Ukraine is civilized, and not too bad for it being a little over 20 year old country. It took the US over 100 years and a civil war just to allow everyone to vote and have equal rights.
If the majority do not want it, they will vote for a new president in 2015. See my post above, the 2010 elections were regarded fair by all international observers. Much more fair than having a group of protesters install an un-elected president.
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind
Besides, I'm not sure Yanukovich came to power because the majority of people voted for him. Seems that he and Putin had an agenda right from scratch.
Yes, the majority voted for him, see my post above, the first and second rounds were considered fair by all international observers. Besides, the majority of Americans did not vote for George Bush over Al Gore in the 2000 US elections, but people did not go protest the gov and attempt to overthrow it because of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind
Another poster mentioned Belarus for a reason, where a dictator rules the country. And, why, look who rules Russia! Now, they want to take over Ukraine. I hope, the people of Ukraine send them a big "Fu*k You!"
Yanukovich is not a dictator, he is an elected official, reminds me of all the Americans that call Obama a dictator.
That is the US I hear on the phone inputting their views on Ukrainian politics, including the lack of confidence in Klitschko, and seeing if their is a way to keep him on the outside of the political circle; how is that for internal meddling of Ukrainian politics? As I posted before, the US is behind many things going on, most likely through funding to third party groups; that is not my idea of Ukrainians "making their own determination".
Ukraine is civilized, and not too bad for it being a little over 20 year old country. It took the US over 100 years and a civil war just to allow everyone to vote and have equal rights.
If the majority do not want it, they will vote for a new president in 2015. See my post above, the 2010 elections were regarded fair by all international observers. Much more fair than having a group of protesters install an un-elected president.
Yes, the majority voted for him, see my post above, the first and second rounds were considered fair by all international observers. Besides, the majority of Americans did not vote for George Bush over Al Gore in the 2000 US elections, but people did not go protest the gov and attempt to overthrow it because of this.
Yanukovich is not a dictator, he is an elected official, reminds me of all the Americans that call Obama a dictator.
That is the US I hear on the phone inputting their views on Ukrainian politics, including the lack of confidence in Klitschko, and seeing if their is a way to keep him on the outside of the political circle; how is that for internal meddling of Ukrainian politics? As I posted before, the US is behind many things going on, most likely through funding to third party groups; that is not my idea of Ukrainians "making their own determination".
All I can say that there was a reason Yanukovitch abandoned EU association agreement and Putin offered $15bn of loans and cheper gas supplies to the Ukraine.
I'm actually happy, the US and the EU are backing the protestors. Imperialist Russia still treats Ukraine as their own territory.
Yes, it's about Ukrainians making their own determination (with some help of some friends, of course).
All I can say that there was a reason Yanukovitch abandoned EU association agreement and Putin offered $15bn of loans and cheper gas supplies to the Ukraine.
I'm actually happy, the US and the EU are backing the protestors. Imperialist Russia still treats Ukraine as their own territory.
Yes, it's about Ukrainians making their own determination (with some help of some friends, of course).
So it is "friends helping" if it is the US and EU assisting.
Somebody WILL help Ukrainians to make a decision, either they want it or not.
Who do YOU choose?
"Gotcha"
Hope it's not the US! we should mind our problems.....and that means all over the world. If you people want to waste each other have at it!
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