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So, tell me this; Yanukovich was elected president of Ukraine, why do you think you and others reserve the right to remove a democratically elected person?
If you do not like the president, you do what civilized countries do in which you vote the president out during the next election.
Problem for you and others is, you are the minority, you will not gain enough votes to remove Yanukovich if he chooses to run in 2015..
The Ukrainian gov has been very tolerant of these protesters, any other gov in the world would not have let the protesters go this far.
Some of goverment's heads who was not be very tolerant finished like Chaushesku or Gaddafi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
The US for example would never allow protesters to storm gov buildings, hold hostage police, etc. The US would have even called National Guard troops in the quell the protests, using deadly force if needed.
All who watch "Russia Today" knows that US is absolutelly undemocratic country.
Lukashenko was elected people also many years ago. But it was the last free election in Belarus.
Yanukovich with previous president Kuchma already falsificated election in 2003 and he has not changed.
And we are not the minority. In 2010 Yanukovich's opponent Yulia Timoshenko was not an appropriate candidate for many people who want Ukraine to be a democratic european country. Conversely all who want back to USSR and to Russia voted for Yanukovich. I think we are 51-60% of Ukraine.
Ukrainian elections are in 2015. You did not address any of my points other than pointing to Belarus, and the 2003 elections. You have no argument apparently countering my assertion regarding the 2010 elections in which Yanukovich was elected, all you state is "in 2010 Yanukovich's opponent Yulia Timoshenko was not an appropriate candidate for many people who want Ukraine to be a democratic european country".
It does NOT matter who was fielded as a candidate, point is there is an election system in place, and you and others do not want to adhere to the ideals of a democracy, you want to impose basically dictatorship rules onto the population; you wish to overthrow and elected president and install a non-elected president.
Any EU country and the US, the protesters would have been crushed of they were trying to overthrow the elected government, the Ukrainian gov has show great tolerance so far.
The Ukrainian gov has been very tolerant of these protesters, any other gov in the world would not have let the protesters go this far. The US for example would never allow protesters to storm gov buildings, hold hostage police, etc. The US would have even called National Guard troops in the quell the protests, using deadly force if needed.
Heck, the US and local gov's used many legal means, and more forceful means, to get the Occupy Wall Street crowd to disperse, and the US gov just sentenced an 84 year old woman to three years prison for her simple protest of a nuclear facility (she broke in and spray painted the walls). Now tell me, the US just sentenced someone to THREE YEARS PRISON for just breaking through a fence and spray painting; do you not at all think the US gov would respond with force if it was masses of protesters storming buildings and looting weapons?
You need to drop this "Ukraine gov oppressive" attitude, the gov is responding like any other gov would, and even more tolerant than most would.
The Ukrainian gov has been tolerant, because both parties know that prolonged violence with firearms could end in the worst case in a civil war. The eyes of the world is on Ukraine in a completely different manner than on Syria, for example. The president offered some concessions too late, and now the situation has gone too far. The opposition accepts only the abdication of Yanykovych and premature elections anymore.
And we are not speaking here about a small group of renegade militants. 50% of the Ukrainian populace supports the protest movement. If 50% of Americans would rise up against an corrupt government, I'm not sure if the NG would roam in with tanks. The result could be very severe, especially when you take into consideration the number of firearms in the US. This is not a small-scale Occupy Wall Street protest with only minor support, we're talking about a mass movement that divides the country 50-50.
And in if this case the NG would massacre people and drop napalm from the sky, I would be very scared about the situation in the US. Even the Wall Street countermeasures were more like from a fascist country than a democratic one, I'm sad to say.
Some of goverment's heads who was not be very tolerant finished like Chaushesku or Gaddafi.
All who watch "Russia Today" knows that US is absolutelly undemocratic country.
Apparently you have no idea how to debate, and you seem just a shill for the protesters; you present not one single counter argument to any of my points, and reason is that my points are correct. You do not believe in a democratic process, but rather the old USSR style oppression where the minority get to choose who rules over the majority.
It is apparent that you are being obtuse to any facts, I doubt you even know the details of the economic issues with the EU and Russia; you simply are hopping on the bandwagon.
The Ukrainian gov has been tolerant, because both parties know that prolonged violence with firearms could end in the worst case in a civil war. The eyes of the world is on Ukraine in a completely different manner than on Syria, for example. The president offered some concessions too late, and now the situation has gone too far. The opposition accepts only the abdication of Yanykovych and premature elections anymore.
And if someone the protesters do not support wins, are they going to protest again and demand yet more elections? This is the issue I have with the protesters; if there were no elections then fine, topple the gov, but since there are elections, the protesters are free to field anyone they want. Issue is, who the protesters field do not win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete
And we are not speaking here about a small group of renegade militants. 50% of the Ukrainian populace supports the protest movement. If 50% of Americans would rise up against an corrupt government, I'm not sure if the NG would roam in with tanks. The result could be very severe, especially when you take into consideration the number of firearms in the US. This is not a small-scale Occupy Wall Street protest with only minor support, we're talking about a mass movement that divides the country 50-50.
Years ago some US states voted to withdraw from the US and form their own country; the US went to war over this. So you cannot think the US gov would not use all means to hold onto power.
And again, in civilized countries, people use the election process to remove leaders; Ukrainian protesters do not want to do this, they do not want to wait for 2015 elections, they want to install their own non-elected leader into power. You state they will hold elections, but tell me, what happens if a person the protesters do not like is elected like Yanukovich was?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete
And in if this case the NG would massacre people and drop napalm from the sky, I would be very scared about the situation in the US. Even the Wall Street countermeasures were more like from a fascist country than a democratic one, I'm sad to say.
This was my point sort of; the actions of the Ukrainian gov is on par with the EU and the US if put in the same situation, the EU and US would even be less tolerant and use harsher force.
So, tell me this; Yanukovich was elected president of Ukraine, why do you think you and others reserve the right to remove a democratically elected person?
If you do not like the president, you do what civilized countries do in which you vote the president out during the next election.
Problem for you and others is, you are the minority, you will not gain enough votes to remove Yanukovich if he chooses to run in 2015. Knowing this, you and others decide to circumvent the democratic process and try to impose your will onto the majority without due process.
There are people in the US who want Obama out, and Congress is at an all time low approval rating, but people are not in the streets trying to force the US government to step down so they can place their own, un-elected person in charge, people simply wait for the next election and vote.
The protesters cannot simply want a democratic Ukraine, yet not show any adherence to such ideals.
It's democracy. If the elected government turns out to be a corrupted and criminal one, the populace has the right to overthrow it. Radical example: Obama reinstates slavery. You're not allowed to do anything because you cast your vote earlier? Governments and presidents fall all the time. In the 30's a government didn't on average last one year in Finland, and they don't last more than that in Italy at the moment.
If the majority don't like the government or president, and so for it loses the popular support, the government must step down. A democratic government has the mandate to rule only for so long as it has popular support. Fundamental principles of representative democracy.
You can always criticize the government and every time you disagree with it doesn't allow you to overthrow it, but if the public opinion turns en masse against it, it has the right to demand new elections. An undemocratic coup is not democracy, but expressing your opinions and fighting for your ideals is. And i remind you, negotiations have been held between the opposition and government. Without the protests, that wouldn't had happened.
If your view of democracy is that you cast your vote once in 4 years and then you should shut up and suck it up, it's no real democracy, it's a dictatorship with a deadline.
Ukrainian elections are in 2015. You did not address any of my points other than pointing to Belarus, and the 2003 elections. You have no argument apparently countering my assertion regarding the 2010 elections in which Yanukovich was elected, all you state is "in 2010 Yanukovich's opponent Yulia Timoshenko was not an appropriate candidate for many people who want Ukraine to be a democratic european country".
It does NOT matter who was fielded as a candidate, point is there is an election system in place, and you and others do not want to adhere to the ideals of a democracy, you want to impose basically dictatorship rules onto the population; you wish to overthrow and elected president and install a non-elected president.
Any EU country and the US, the protesters would have been crushed of they were trying to overthrow the elected government, the Ukrainian gov has show great tolerance so far.
Yanukovich tried to change people's will in 2003. He put into the jail his main opponent Yulia Timoshenko. He changed constitution to return to president republic instead of parliamentary republic. Ukraine is very similar to Russia and Belarus. Are there not enough to understand that 2010 election was the last free election in Ukraine ? It is offten in third-world countries when in free election people elect a dictator for next fifty years. And this is not "election system in place".
I expected revolution in 2015 but Yanukovich led the country to revolution now.
And if someone the protesters do not support wins, are they going to protest again and demand yet more elections? This is the issue I have with the protesters; if there were no elections then fine, topple the gov, but since there are elections, the protesters are free to field anyone they want. Issue is, who the protesters field do not win.
So, you think police should just silence the protesters? Business as usual till 2015? "Hey kids, sorry for all of that. Let's just forget about everything that just happened. There will be fair elections in a year. I promise *wink*"
I'm sorry, but someone who uses snipers against the opposition has lost the right to rule. Democratically elected or not.
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