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As I've said before - Europe is a club. If Ukraine is admitted to the club ( which will happen obviously only for a reason of pocking a stick into Russia's eye,) that doesn't mean that Ukrainians are going to be treated as equal. ( Just look at Poles or Balts as example.) The situation is sort of like in the US, where people of color are admitted, but not accepted as equal.
Enough with the Cold War mentality already. Rise up from the trenches. There doesn't exist an EU vs Russia mentality anymore. The EU is interested in Russia, wants to do cooperation with Russia and many countries like Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Finland invest a lot in Russia. The EU countries are Russia's most important export partners.
Almost anyone except for the Baltic States don't feel Russia as any kind of threat. For example in these times, Finland see only environmental threats coming from Russia, not military threats.
I don't know where your impression that Poland and the Baltic States aren't considered equals comes from. It's not true. Poland is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe and already a important partner. Poland has the 5th most Members of the European Parliament, more than Finland, Sweden and Denmark combined. Of course they are equal.
I wish Russian people all the best and the leader they want and deserve who will make Russia even a better place to live, if this is what they want. I also strongly believe that Russia will continue to play an important role in the world affairs.
As for the Ukraine, which is the focus of this thread, I wish it to become a part of the European community one day. In spite of strong ties with Russia in the past, I think, it should keep distance from Russia and remain an independent country.
In the light of newest developments in the Ukraine, I think, Yanukovitch should bow to the wish of the majority of the Ukrainian people (yes, I believe, it is the wish of the majority of Ukrainians) and sign the Free Trade Agreement with the EU, which he supposed to do in the first place.
After that, he and Putin can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.
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Originally Posted by Freader
I'm watching on Russia, Belarus, etc to know how the alternative of Europe looks like. In my opinion it is looks ugly.
Some people say that for some nations a dictator or tzar is needed. As we can see Russians are among these nations. But Ukrainians are not. That is why I'm angry about Yanukovich's decision to make close union with Russia.
^^^^I agree.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Then why do you keep on bringing Russia into discussion?
..... ( as long as someone like Stalin isn't there,) is precisely that - that the West would love to see Russia not playing that "important role" in the world affairs any longer.
As I've said before - Europe is a club. If Ukraine is admitted to the club ( which will happen obviously only for a reason of pocking a stick into Russia's eye,) that doesn't mean that Ukrainians are going to be treated as equal. ( Just look at Poles or Balts as example.) The situation is sort of like in the US, where people of color are admitted, but not accepted as equal. When someone like NATO's Van Rompuy is announcing that "Ukraine belongs with Europe," it makes me chuckle. Yeah, Ukraine belongs to Europe, with all its seven millions of Russians; what, Europeans don't have enough of Russians among them by now? Rotflmao, particularly if anyone can explain to me how Russians living in Eastern Ukraine differ from Ukrainians exactly.
It has been independent country for the last twenty years - was it not? Putin definitely didn't want it ( that would cost him too much money,) so what seem to be the problem?
Stalin was very successful in Russianizing Ukraine....with almost 8 million Russians. Ukraine has every right to become an independent nation. And Yanukovich is a puppet of Putin.
Then why do you keep on bringing Russia into discussion?
As an intro to my post.
Oh, and also because it's a Ukrainian friend who wnats Ukraine to join THEIR club where Ukraine would be treated better than in the EU club?
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Originally Posted by erasure
Truth to be told, Russians can't get the leader that they deserve, because there is too much threat of foreign involvement in the country, plus Russia is not without a danger of certain inner circles siding with foreign interests ( that the nineties clearly showed.) And the only reason of these foreign involvements ( as long as someone like Stalin isn't there,) is precisely that - that the West would love to see Russia not playing that "important role" in the world affairs any longer. Unfortunately for Russians, they can't sort their internal affairs and become democratic country ( or whatever they want to be,) because of that external pressure and oh - those natural resources that are so coveted by the West. That's why they choose the lesser of two evils and accept a dictator, as long as he keeps the country together. So Russians are not in the same situation as the Westerners, that are completely free to manage their own affairs. ( That is if we don't count the skirmishes between Europe and the US here and there.)
I understand it.
Like I said, I wish Russia good luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
It has been independent country for the last twenty years - was it not? Putin definitely didn't want it ( that would cost him too much money,) so what seems to be the problem?
Yes, and independent it should remain. And as long as it is, I've no problem with that.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Why was he "supposed to do it" in the first place?
Because this is what the majority of Ukrainians want.
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Originally Posted by erasure
He was clearly shopping for a better deal economy wise; had EU offered him something better to begin with, why would he sign the deal with Russia?
You should have started with "In my opinion, he was..."
Why would he sign the deal with Russia? And why wouldn't he?
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Originally Posted by erasure
Psst, I'll tell you a secret - particularly if you are an American - "freedom and democracy" have direct connection with money and history of private property in the country - the laws, the protection of it on the lower echelon of the country - that kind of thing.
Thank you for sharing and being hilarious.
Psst, This is why the trade agreement with the "EU club" is needed. One step at a time. No need to be stuck in the past forever.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Well, if the world is spinning around according to your understanding and concerns, then to hell they both go, but if not, then sorry...
And no need to apologize. You're a valuable member of this forum and your (humble) opinion is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 02-21-2014 at 11:29 AM..
As I wrote above constitutonlal cort may not change constitution itself. Especially after 6 years of constitution changed. It was anti constitutional decision, one step to dictatorship.
Please show the reference to this. I referenced my sources, but you have some difficulty for some reason providing any reference to back your argument.
And stating it is one step to a dictatorship is hilarious, you have absolutely no facts other than restating the same thing over and over again. Elections are next year, show me where the elections have been suspended, show me where the 2010 elections were not determined fair by international observers.
Ah, yes, but think how you wish, what ever makes your day.
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Originally Posted by Freader
For whom this text from wiki posted ? Did someone say that 2010 president election was unfair ? The time from 2004 to 2010 after "orange revolution" was at least very similar to "democratic process". President Yuschenko provided possibility for fair election in 2010. Soviet and Russia-oriented people elected Yanukovich (49% vs 45,5%) and he began to prepare for the ufair election in 2015 at once.
You have proof? You make many assertions, yet not one single time have you ever submitted proff of this, all the more reason to show you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and are only good at spreading BS propaganda around.
Show me one scholarly source that states, with evidence, that Yanukovich is planning to make the 2015 elections unfair. Heck, he has not even stated he is running yet.
Like a child's opinion.
Nazi Party in Germany was elected official in 1933, so Hitler was not a dictator ?
Putin in Russia was elected, Lukashenko in Belarus was elected official. I mentioned these two names twice at least from yesterday's discussion, how do you think they both are not dictators also ?
Show me where Yanukovich has banned all parties except his own.
Putin - 2012 elections: “There were serious problems from the very start of this election. The point of elections is that the outcome should be uncertain. This was not the case in Russia. There was no real competition and abuse of government resources ensured that the ultimate winner of the election was never in doubt.”[7]
"The OSCE called for a thorough investigation of the electoral violations and urged citizens to actively oversee future elections in order to increase confidence.[7]"
Show me where the OSCE has stated Ukraine's 2010 elections need a thorough investigation, and there were serious problems from the very start of the election.
You see, when you are debating, you need to show sources, not opinions, some guy down the street, what your mom told you, what you dreamed, or what you think it should be, but actual facts with sources to back it up.
You also refuse to address my other numerous points, as doing so really counters any claims you have, thus your tactic is to ignore my points rather than concede your opinion is incorrect.
They mostly ignore international involvement at all. Deputies from Yanukovich's party waited the president to resolve the situation. But he led the country to the war so they don't listen his commands more.
He did not lead nothing, the protesters instigated all of this, heck, the protesters broke the truce right in front of every darn international media and observer person there yesterday. The protest leaders do not have have unified leadership, nor any control over many protesters.
I notice you did not address a single point I brought up in my previous posts about this.
Absolutely right! I was surprised when he began to talk about agreement with EU and I thought - is he stupid ? Europeans will press him for "human rights", "democracy", "fair election", why he need this ? It is much better for him to choise union with "dictator's club" Russia's customs union.
It is a trade agreement, you obviously have no clue what it is even all about; the EU would not have even approached Ukraine about it if Ukraine were such human rights and democracy abusers. Obviously Ukraine under Yanukovich is doing so well, that the EU considers Ukraine worthy enough to join into a trade pact with them.
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Rotflmao, particularly if anyone can explain to me how Russians living in Eastern Ukraine differ from Ukrainians exactly. 
