Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Germans , polish , italian and pretty much all of nationalites around the world who live in farmland usualy live there from generations and are hard to pull out from there . It is not limited only to germans .
You are talking about the OLD WORLD and what it is there, but I am talking about the US, which are supposed to be a "melting pot" with high mobility of people, moving where "job market" takes them.
However the descendants of German immigrants ( who happened to settle in farmlands) seem to be resistant to those ideas.
Quote:
And there are a lot of americans of german ethnicity in every american region not only in midwest, where they live generation after generation like most people , so what ?
I'm sure that Germans are spread throughout the US, however there are two things you need to keep in mind;
A. CITY folks are most likely to blend in with the host culture, COUNTRY people are not - they tend to stick to their own, given the opportunity.
B. When given this opportunity, ( i.e. when provided with land,) they'll still "stick to their own" from generation to generation (that's what seems to be happening in Wisconsin,)
Now RUSSIANS have the same tendency; CITY people blend with the host cultures, RURAL dwellers usually don't venture out of the country, but when they do, you'll find the picture reminiscent of the one above.
Irish and british heritage is also very frequent throughout all of the four regions of the united states , not only on the east coast usualy mixed with other ethnicities including german .
Oh you see them in Wisconsin too, here and there, but they are clearly in minority.
( I LITERALLY had to ask one of my friends, whether he was of BRITISH heritage vs German heritage, which is common around here. The response was affirmative.)
Quote:
There is no german gene at all , so I do not know what you are talking about . What are these german traits that represent whole germany ? The ones from Prussia or Bavaria ? Because you know , they are nothing alike . So how there can be a german "gene" when Germany have always been very regional country with variety of customs and big regional differences.
Of course there is such thing as "German gene."
The fact that Germany as a state came to life as the result of unification of confederate states, loosely affiliated with each other, doesn't mean that there is no such thing as "German gene," ( as there is such thing as "Russian gene," Spanish gene and so on.
The population of these confederate states consisted of the descendants of the tribes, that were SPECIFIC for this particular geographic area, even if there was not only ONE tribe ( state) to begin with, but few of them. And even if these tribes/states didn't have much in common to begin with, they were still;
A. Unique to the area
and
B. Being in proximity to each other initially, (and later unified in one state) their genetic material became more uniform, not to mention that Scandinavian admixture across the line contributed to this uniformity.
(The rest of this uniformity of course came from not genetic, but legal framework.)
Quote:
It makes me laugh where for example foreigners equate lederhosen with Germany . It has nothing to do with far majority of Germany . It is just one of many different , regional things .
Yes it's a regional thing, but this specific region is still within Germany.
When/if Bavaria will go its own way, then you'll probably have a case))
Quote:
Can you explain to me why consientiousness and perfection at work stereotype of german is coming from Prussians which were of heavily balto-slavic extriction ?
To my knowledge, Prussia was always associated with militarism/military state, not "consientiousness and perfection."
Quote:
According to your views shouldn't the slavic "gene" destroy those values ?
According to my view, German and Slavic genes (genes of the Northern Europeans overall) are not mutually destructive, ( or rather not particularly destructive, on the scale from one to ten.)
That means, that keeping the core value intact, every northern Slavic group can absorb certain amount of Germans and not to be harmed in the process, as Germans can absorb certain amount of Slavs and not to be harmed by this addition as well, AS LONG AS THE RATIO remains relatively low. Same goes to Scandinavians I'd think.
Quote:
I mean slavic countries are stereotypicaly known for everythnig opposite to these values ?
Not "everything" ( at least when I think about Russians.)
The slackers that they are in daily life with "I don't give a damn" attitude, but put them in emergency mode, and you'll see how precise and tenacious they can be, how driven, calculative and accurate.
Not to mention that they make damn good soldiers.
So no, not "everything."
Quote:
So why didn't this supposed "gene" destroy it ? Maybe because those values come more from lutheran religion and prussian culture and genes have nothing to do with it ? Yes I think it is an answer .
The "gene" would be destroyed when the host nation would be PHYSICALLY outnumbered, as I've already said. However if the core value stays intact, the newcomers can be absorbed, with the CULTURAL NORMS imposed on them, helping to the process as well.
Quote:
And most germans are hardly heavy party animals . Those are the traits more of irish , british , polish people . Most germans are responsible drinkers and do not get smashed , even though they like to drink beer , which also comes from culture and not any genes , which are heavily mixed . So it is the next proof that the Americans of german heritage have very little in common with actual Germans .
It's rather an imposed stereotype, that Germans are "reserved quiet people."
They probably are. When abroad. But I observed them in their "natural habitat," and they are not all that "reserved and quiet," particularly when it comes to a country side. .
I have to disagree with you erasure. I subscribe to more of the nurture side rather than the nature. Yes I think that genes play a pivotal role in a persons character, I think there are genes that are going to make people more emotional, reserved, angry, irritable, smart, funny, friendly, introverted, extraverted etc. But I think in the end of the day I think how a person is raised and what environment they grew up in is going shape a persons character and what culture they identify with. For instance the dances you brought up a couple posts ago, those dances have to be learned, for instance I'm Russian/Ukrainian and I can't dance because nobody taught me how, and nobody in my family dances, it's just not part of my families culture, but according to you I should be just as good as those Russian soldiers just because I share their genes (and maybe I could be if some one taught me). And I'm pretty sure if somebody really wanted to they could learn how to dance in that style. I think that genes help play a role in the organic development of cultures, but a culture is passed on by being learned rather than by blood. Leave a toddler in the woods and it will lose it's cultural back ground and turn feral. The reason why certain people have a hard time of assimilating is because they look so different that the local people will never accept them, even if they have lived among them for many generations, plus not everyone wants to assimilate, many immigrants want to remain in a bubble and create a parallel society to the local one.
You are talking about the OLD WORLD and what it is there, but I am talking about the US, which are supposed to be a "melting pot" with high mobility of people, moving where "job market" takes them.
However the descendants of German immigrants ( who happened to settle in farmlands) seem to be resistant to those ideas.
I'm sure that Germans are spread throughout the US, however there are two things you need to keep in mind;
A. CITY folks are most likely to blend in with the host culture, COUNTRY people are not - they tend to stick to their own, given the opportunity.
B. When given this opportunity, ( i.e. when provided with land,) they'll still "stick to their own" from generation to generation (that's what seems to be happening in Wisconsin,)
Now RUSSIANS have the same tendency; CITY people blend with the host cultures, RURAL dwellers usually don't venture out of the country, but when they do, you'll find the picture reminiscent of the one above.
Oh you see them in Wisconsin too, here and there, but they are clearly in minority.
( I LITERALLY had to ask one of my friends, whether he was of BRITISH heritage vs German heritage, which is common around here. The response was affirmative.)
Of course there is such thing as "German gene." The fact that Germany as a state came to life as the result of unification of confederate states, loosely affiliated with each other, doesn't mean that there is no such thing as "German gene," ( as there is such thing as "Russian gene," Spanish gene and so on.
The population of these confederate states consisted of the descendants of the tribes, that were SPECIFIC for this particular geographic area, even if there was not only ONE tribe ( state) to begin with, but few of them. And even if these tribes/states didn't have much in common to begin with, they were still;
A. Unique to the area
and
B. Being in proximity to each other initially, (and later unified in one state) their genetic material became more uniform, not to mention that Scandinavian admixture across the line contributed to this uniformity.
(The rest of this uniformity of course came from not genetic, but legal framework.)
Yes it's a regional thing, but this specific region is still within Germany.
When/if Bavaria will go its own way, then you'll probably have a case))
To my knowledge, Prussia was always associated with militarism/military state, not "consientiousness and perfection."
According to my view, German and Slavic genes (genes of the Northern Europeans overall) are not mutually destructive, ( or rather not particularly destructive, on the scale from one to ten.)
That means, that keeping the core value intact, every northern Slavic group can absorb certain amount of Germans and not to be harmed in the process, as Germans can absorb certain amount of Slavs and not to be harmed by this addition as well, AS LONG AS THE RATIO remains relatively low. Same goes to Scandinavians I'd think.
Not "everything" ( at least when I think about Russians.)
The slackers that they are in daily life with "I don't give a damn" attitude, but put them in emergency mode, and you'll see how precise and tenacious they can be, how driven, calculative and accurate.
Not to mention that they make damn good soldiers.
So no, not "everything."
The "gene" would be destroyed when the host nation would be PHYSICALLY outnumbered, as I've already said. However if the core value stays intact, the newcomers can be absorbed, with the CULTURAL NORMS imposed on them, helping to the process as well.
It's rather an imposed stereotype, that Germans are "reserved quiet people."
They probably are. When abroad. But I observed them in their "natural habitat," and they are not all that "reserved and quiet," particularly when it comes to a country side. .
I agree with Erasure.
I am married to American of German/English ( could be Irish ) descent for 25 years.
His German genes run deep. It is too obvious to Russian me.
The "conscientiousness & perfection" are nearly an obsession with him.
Everything he does is perfect. It might take a long time, but it will be as good as an original or better. He has pride in his work.
He is very organised and efficient. In his very big workshop every bolt, nut, instrument, machine has its place.
It is very clean.
He can weld, machine, build any detail or just about anything.
Everything he does he excels in it - archery, target shooting, scuba diving, now building and flying rc planes.
If he started doing something he will stay on it until it is done and done very well.
He is workaholic, has good work ethics, does not watch much tv or spend time on computer or wastes time period.
He is very punctual and come to his appointments 15-30 minutes before time. (While I barely make it on time).
You can trust his word 100%, never lied to anybody.
Conformist.
Walks , looks like a military person (loves short haircuts)- it is kind of a second nature to him. And he was in US reserves for a long time. Loved it, very patriotic. Would never question military orders or any rules - "that is what we were told to do". (While I would be all "why, why, why?"...)
He likes to can his own food (we have an organic garden). While I eyeball everything, he goes straight by recipe.
Our credit scores in 800s, because we pay our bills as they come in and do not miss any.
He is good at it - balancing our accounts, at doing taxes too. He is doing them the next day we receive our w-2s.
I do think "German angst" is real.
Because 2 days ago he told me we have a year!!! worth of some special vacuumed food that is good for 25 years and the military grade super water filter (the most expensive on the market) with spare filters and gas masks for both of us ....And we had it for a while...He likes to be prepared. I would probably end up feeding this food to our chickens...
For example. We are going for a camping trip next month. Camper is already ready with his things neatly arranged. While I will be throwing mine the night before or in the morning...
I do believe in"behavioral genes" shaped by environment. Nature and nurture - both. I see it, it is real...
I also think that because of these qualities in German people (overall) Germany could recover after WWII and create the largest economy in Western Europe.
I have to disagree with you erasure. I subscribe to more of the nurture side rather than the nature. Yes I think that genes play a pivotal role in a persons character, I think there are genes that are going to make people more emotional, reserved, angry, irritable, smart, funny, friendly, introverted, extraverted etc. But I think in the end of the day I think how a person is raised and what environment they grew up in is going shape a persons character and what culture they identify with. For instance the dances you brought up a couple posts ago, those dances have to be learned, for instance I'm Russian/Ukrainian and I can't dance because nobody taught me how, and nobody in my family dances, it's just not part of my families culture, but according to you I should be just as good as those Russian soldiers just because I share their genes (and maybe I could be if some one taught me). And I'm pretty sure if somebody really wanted to they could learn how to dance in that style. I think that genes help play a role in the organic development of cultures, but a culture is passed on by being learned rather than by blood. Leave a toddler in the woods and it will lose it's cultural back ground and turn feral. The reason why certain people have a hard time of assimilating is because they look so different that the local people will never accept them, even if they have lived among them for many generations, plus not everyone wants to assimilate, many immigrants want to remain in a bubble and create a parallel society to the local one.
But, leave a Russian in US...
I read an interesting article recently, maybe a little outdated and things are changing by now, but still very impressive.
Something we do not hear anywhere and often about...millionaires of Russian descent here in US.
The old stock.
What do you think about that? Nature or nurture? Or both?
"WINNING ANCESTRY GROUPS
If the English ancestry group does not have the highest concentration of millionaire households, then which group does? The Russian ancestry group ranks first, the Scottish ranks second, and the Hungarian ranks third. Although the Russian ancestry group accounts for only about 1.1 percent of all households in America, it accounts for 6.4 percent of all millionaire households. We estimate that approximately 22 of every 100 households headed by someone of Russian ancestry has a net worth of $1 million or more. This is in sharp contrast to the English ancestry group, in which only 7.71 in 100 of its members are in the millionaire league. How much wealth does this Russian American millionaire group have in total? We estimate approximately $1.1 trillion, or nearly 5 percent of all the personal wealth in America today!"
The whole article below. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...aire.html?_r=2
You are talking about the OLD WORLD and what it is there, but I am talking about the US, which are supposed to be a "melting pot" with high mobility of people, moving where "job market" takes them.
However the descendants of German immigrants ( who happened to settle in farmlands) seem to be resistant to those ideas.
I disagree . I just put in google "famous americans from rural midwest " I went to the imdb and then checked ancestries of american actors from rural midwest . There was not a single one of full german ancestry . Every single one of them was of mixed ancestry . And they were from rural midwest . I do not think that this is a coincidence . I honestly doubt that even in rural areas of midwest majority of people are not of mixed ancestries . Everything says the opposite .
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
The population of these confederate states consisted of the descendants of the tribes, that were SPECIFIC for this particular geographic area, even if there was not only ONE tribe ( state) to begin with, but few of them. And even if these tribes/states didn't have much in common to begin with, they were still;
A. Unique to the area
and
B. Being in proximity to each other initially, (and later unified in one state) their genetic material became more uniform, not to mention that Scandinavian admixture across the line contributed to this uniformity.
(The rest of this uniformity of course came from not genetic, but legal framework.)
The population of german states consisted of descendants of germanic tribes in the west , celtic tribes in the south and baltic and slavic tribes in the east . Later germans from the west mixed with people in the east colonized and germanized them . Germans are one big melting pot . They are not icelanders or even swedes . And you can find plenty of various looks in Germany . Both of these people are german without any foreign influences . You can't seriously claim that they are of the same genetic stock .
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
To my knowledge, Prussia was always associated with militarism/military state, not "consientiousness and perfection."
One does not exclude the others .
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
According to my view, German and Slavic genes (genes of the Northern Europeans overall) are not mutually destructive, ( or rather not particularly destructive, on the scale from one to ten.)
That means, that keeping the core value intact, every northern Slavic group can absorb certain amount of Germans and not to be harmed in the process, as Germans can absorb certain amount of Slavs and not to be harmed by this addition as well, AS LONG AS THE RATIO remains relatively low. Same goes to Scandinavians I'd think.
Germans already absorbed a lot of slavs and balts , and it did not change anything . What is now east germany and what used to be west prussia and east prussia and pomerania and silesia was fully slavic and baltic (east prussia and part of west prussia ) . When Germans went there , they did not genocide those people , they completely absorbed and assimilated them . It did not hurt or change these germans one bit . All that mattered was just culture and environment . Genes did not matter at all .
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
It's rather an imposed stereotype, that Germans are "reserved quiet people."
They probably are. When abroad. But I observed them in their "natural habitat," and they are not all that "reserved and quiet," particularly when it comes to a country side. .
I agree that not all germans are reserved and it is just stereotype , but if you think that Germans party hard , then you should go to Poland . Party chases party there . It all depends on someone's point of view .
Last edited by WestPreussen; 04-30-2018 at 09:52 AM..
And I suspect that anthropology/anthropologists can't answer this question as well.
What it looks like to me, is that the whole "cultural anthropology" is mostly an American thing, a highly subjective *science*, and even the "icon" of said above *science* has been doubted by other researchers.
And au contraire, I suspect that THERE IS a gene that makes one a good farmer and another one - a better tradesman.
No, what the "gene" does, is make someone to do a diligent, thorough job day in and day out, ( farming in this case) and when celebrating, the process goes in the same manner - thoroughly and wholeheartedly.
And I don't know about "Polka," but it takes certain "gene" yet again to do this ( particularly in the military uniform,)
So even if (hypothetical) Pole ( or Englishman) will live in Senegal ( or Mali in this case,) he will NEVER be able to move like that. And THAT's what the "cultural heritage" is all about; people that carry the gene, that identifies the "ethnic traits" of any ethnic group. And as long as the "core" of this group is alive and well, as long as people carrying that specific gene are still around, you can ADD different genes in small portions, that can be assimilated into any particular group, without destroying the core features and cultural heritage of any given ethnicity. Once the *foreign* genes will start outnumbering the host, the cultural heritage will be destroyed as well.
Not really. I've noticed that the Whites in New York are predominantly of Jewish or Italian ancestry, the British/Irish heritage is more pronounced on the East Coast, and Germans that settled in the farmlands of Midwest are hard to pull out from their places, where they live generation after generation.
Normally America should be all about "mobility," but let me tell you, in Wisconsin they don't like the "newcomers" and they don't like to leave their "homeland" too, ( even though my instructor in college told me long time ago, that "head hunters" from different states are coming to Wisconsin to hire locals straight from college, (to lure them out of their dens apparently, lol,) because they are known to be a good workers.
And yes, they DO come across as diligent people, but when the Octoberfest comes here, they run wild too, and boy do they drink and party)))) I used to put three pillows over my head.
So I guess that "German gene" is alive and well after all, even though they are oblivious to German language here.
That's because I suspect that modern nations were born/created as a result of the combination of few different genetic components, specific for every nation. And most likely the process of creation of this "genetic composition" was accomplished by the middle ages more or less.
This is rubbish, are you from Eastern Europe? Do you seriously believe that everybody 'English' has some kind of 'pure English DNA' or everybody from Germany are genetically identical!? This racial purity business was 'put to bed' in the West a long time ago (probably since the nonsensical Nazi Aryan race rubbish), it is about time the 'East' caught up.
I read an interesting article recently, maybe a little outdated and things are changing by now, but still very impressive.
Something we do not hear anywhere and often about...millionaires of Russian descent here in US.
The old stock.
What do you think about that? Nature or nurture? Or both?
"WINNING ANCESTRY GROUPS
If the English ancestry group does not have the highest concentration of millionaire households, then which group does? The Russian ancestry group ranks first, the Scottish ranks second, and the Hungarian ranks third. Although the Russian ancestry group accounts for only about 1.1 percent of all households in America, it accounts for 6.4 percent of all millionaire households. We estimate that approximately 22 of every 100 households headed by someone of Russian ancestry has a net worth of $1 million or more. This is in sharp contrast to the English ancestry group, in which only 7.71 in 100 of its members are in the millionaire league. How much wealth does this Russian American millionaire group have in total? We estimate approximately $1.1 trillion, or nearly 5 percent of all the personal wealth in America today!"
The whole article below. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...aire.html?_r=2
I think that has more to do with immigrants than with nationality, even Nigerian immigrants are on average richer than the general white population. Immigrants are usually people who are not afraid of taking risks and very hard working. The immigrants themselves might not be all that successful in their new host nation, but their children and grandchildren usually do because they instill this work ethic onto them, and their offspring feel like they are obliged to not waste the opportunity their parents/grandparents gave them, and everything they sacrificed to get them their. Also a lot of the times it's the cream of the crop that immigrates, as was the case with Russia and their brain drain. Also I know that in high school when I would meet people who just immigrated from Russia they would consider me 100% American even though I would be talking to them in Russian.
Culture isn't passed via genes but memes (A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices, that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme)
I think that has more to do with immigrants than with nationality, even Nigerian immigrants are on average richer than the general white population. Immigrants are usually people who are not afraid of taking risks and very hard working. The immigrants themselves might not be all that successful in their new host nation, but their children and grandchildren usually do because they instill this work ethic onto them, and their offspring feel like they are obliged to not waste the opportunity their parents/grandparents gave them, and everything they sacrificed to get them their. Also a lot of the times it's the cream of the crop that immigrates, as was the case with Russia and their brain drain. Also I know that in high school when I would meet people who just immigrated from Russia they would consider me 100% American even though I would be talking to them in Russian.
Yes, I think you are right. I guess I just want to believe that there is still something special about us - the "Russian gene"
I worked so hard here to make it. I have done so many double shifts, overtime,extra jobs, took extra calls.
Kids saw it. Failure or slacking off was not an option.
I tried to speak Russian at home. They could speak and write. My daughter even double majored in Russian language in addition to computer science. But, they are not using it, both speak with accent, loosing it. Both fully assimilated into American life, married to Americans. Grandchildren do not have anything in common with Russian heritage apart from their Russian first names and my famous stubbornness, if that can be inherited.
I also think that after a couple of generations Americans loose that drive. So many just work all their lives on the same job - maybe skilled job, but without any will to push further, to improve.
It is always an excuse "I have kids" (but, you will always have kids - bills will be only bigger as kids grow up), "I don't have money" (but... you will never have them if you think this way... you can get scholarships, loans, your work might pay for you), "I don't know if I can do it" (but I did it and so can you - try it). You know when back in 90s I applied for FASFA (educational) loan and they rejected me because I made too much money to qualify? I sent at least 20 of my American co-workers back to college and by now they doubled their salaries. At least. They often call, e-mail - gratefull and start with "Do you remember..?" Of course I do.
And au contraire, I suspect that THERE IS a gene that makes one a good farmer and another one - a better tradesman.
Nonsense. I suspect there is a gene that makes internet trolls internet trolls but that doesn't make it true. Show me a real scientific publication and I'll rest my case. It is very presumptious to assume that a whole people is capable of certain things only due to genetics. I guess Donald Trump should be working on his farm in Iowa because his German genes made him an excellent farmer and a terrible tradesman? Too bad that did not turn out to be true. Just like the millions of other Americans of German background who are NOT farmers. Or is that all due to interbreeding? Germany is one of the largest trading nations in the world, how is that even possible with their farmer genes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Not really. I've noticed that the Whites in New York are predominantly of Jewish or Italian ancestry, the British/Irish heritage is more pronounced on the East Coast, and Germans that settled in the farmlands of Midwest are hard to pull out from their places, where they live generation after generation.
Normally America should be all about "mobility," but let me tell you, in Wisconsin they don't like the "newcomers" and they don't like to leave their "homeland" too, ( even though my instructor in college told me long time ago, that "head hunters" from different states are coming to Wisconsin to hire locals straight from college, (to lure them out of their dens apparently, lol,) because they are known to be a good workers.
And yes, they DO come across as diligent people, but when the Octoberfest comes here, they run wild too, and boy do they drink and party)))) I used to put three pillows over my head.
So I guess that "German gene" is alive and well after all, even though they are oblivious to German language here.
I'm sorry but I grew up in Germany and have lived in Wisconsin for quite some time. Wisconsinites (or other Midwesterners of German background) and Germans are nothing alike at all besides their German last names. They are just mainstream white Americans who cling to their supposed heritage that is mostly lost in the American melting pot. Calling their local village fiesta Octoberfest does not make them German.
The only reason why there are many farmers of German origin in the Midwest is because the Midwest was settled at the height of the German immigration wave and at a time when Germany was not an industrialized country, so obviously most people coming were farmers. Property tends to get passed on from generation to generation so there are still many farmers with a German heritage.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I would probably end up feeding this food to our chickens...
Both of these people are german without any foreign influences . You can't seriously claim that they are of the same genetic stock . 
Just like the millions of other Americans of German background who are NOT farmers. Or is that all due to interbreeding? 
Germany is one of the largest trading nations in the world, how is that even possible with their farmer genes? 
