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This misunderstanding isn't your fault, because the USA is actually a more difficult country to grasp than most people think. Given that it is so large, that also applies to most Americans.
However, it especially applies to Europeans and Americans who either have not traveled much in America and/or who don't seriously think about and research this specific aspect of America. Which is most people.
Most people, everywhere, lack the immigration history and dispersion knowledge to even begin observing the truth in regard to American society.
In short, "Germans" (mostly Swabian / Bavarian stock, but also from everywhere - my great grandparents being from Kiel) essentially migrated here and infilled most of the prosperous land in the nation (urban, suburban, and the rural farming land).
How they differed from the prior immigrants and most recent immigrants is that they were (and are) primarily a farming tribe. Especially West German immigrants.
Thus, they infilled rural farming areas, not just urban and suburban areas like the other immigrants who were (and are) not of a significant farming heritage.
Though, the Germans lived in those areas as well, and to this day represent a fairly significant genetic base in urban and suburban regions (decreasingly in the coastal large urban regions).
It is only in these urban an suburban regions where Germans will be seen to significantly mix with other tribes, because those are the only places where other tribes exist in significant numbers.
Though even there, there are a fair amount of unmixed Germanic type individuals in second tier cities. They are more rare in places like NYC proper where the immigration churn is constant due to the hyper-active mercantile economy.
Most of the nation, as a percentage of inhabited land, has little other appreciable immigration of other tribes. The coastal cities do, the interior cities to a lesser extent, and the crucial rural and exurban areas of most of the USA have very little if any other immigrants. As a percentage of land.
The low population density aspect of the USA, which is most of the USA, and which is occupied by original Germanic stock, serves to dissuade other immigrants who generally are urban tribal types distinct from the farming and domineering mercantile (Anglos, Scandis, Dutch) German tribes.
The Anglos are still quite common and domineering as merchants (a term that I use very loosely as a catch all for most economic modes that aren't farming or manufacturing) on the coasts (as are other tribes).
The Scandis set up a city above the primary farming heartland, in order to create a mercantile center from which to trade the farming goods produced by the West German farming types who largely operate the economy in the major farming production States to the south of them.
The Dutch pretty much inhabit one inland farming State, though I would guess that a small Dutch elite still exists in place like NYC (originally called New Amsterdam). Most cities here retain a deep echo of their origin.
I'm unsure what the primary Dutch economic mode is inland, other than farming, but they noticeably vote differently than the other West German tribe farming States that surround them (as do the Scandis).
As people migrate to urban areas, mixing is probable.
Though, you will often see a new highly popular female actor who is plucked from the farming belt if not straight from Scandanavia. Many actors are mixed, but the relatively unmixed Germanic phenotype is still prized by the media consuming public.
As a final note, "Germany" itself is, by definition, a mixed nation of several different tribes that have long been in conflict. None of the primary power centers of these tribes lies within Germany. Germany is the chessboard of Europe where these tribes meet to do business and fight, traditionally. The single nation in Germany is an ahistorical concept, though the tribes who meet there to live as "Germany" more or less all have generally been extraordinarily high performing and fierce tribes. In this aspect of their respective cultures, they are compatible. In every oehr respect, they have long and often do act as differing ribes with differing interests. See Germany's history. See modern voting and political patterns in Germany.
I understand all of that , but as you see there is no just one german-american agriculture type . There are plenty of americans of german heritage in the cities and suburbs . And farming is not limited to only americans of german descend . There are plenty of scotch-irish , scottish and anglo farming families . So it is not that unique to german americans .
Anyway , for me german is nationality and not ethnicity . Swabian , bavarian , prussian , westphalian are ethnicities for me . Germany is highly diverse country . High german is just official language . There are people up north that speak plattdeutsch that is more similar to dutch language , there is bavarian language .
I have a questions to you . Do those german americans have polterabend before the wedding ? Do they speak the language ? Do they have spermuell ? Are there any folk festivals ? Have they kept any german traditions at all ? What is exactly so german about them ? I understand your point of view but to me blood alone is not enough to call yourself something . There is just no excuse , if someone is too lazy to even learn the basics of the language he can hardly call himself a german .
I understand all of that , but as you see there is no just one german-american agriculture type . There are plenty of americans of german heritage in the cities and suburbs . And farming is not limited to only americans of german descend . There are plenty of scotch-irish , scottish and anglo farming families . So it is not that unique to german americans .
You aren't really understanding. There are not "plenty" of these other farming families, as a matter of percentage. It is mostly unique to German Americans.
Most groups have their preferred economic mode. There may be some Anglo farmers, but I assure you that isn't the historical nor preferred economic mode for the large group. Thus, most USA farmers do not have an Anglo-Saxon heritage. You will find them to be more common in New England, but this region is not a primary farming region. It is too forested. Anglos live here to engage in non-farming, non-manufacturing economic modes. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Eastern PA, Virginia, and the coastal Southeast. All mostly forested and/or with a large port or political center present.
Most Irish and Scots inhabit either urban regions or the wasteland forested / hill regions where manufacturing or mining was once dominant.
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Anyway , for me german is nationality and not ethnicity .
So, a legal qualification? That's your perspective preference. Though, in m experience, the only true delineation is genetic. Strip people of their cultures, and some genetically rooted behaviors remain. That's been my experience living in the most diverse nation on Earth for my entire life.
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I have a questions to you . Do those german americans have polterabend before the wedding ? Do they speak the language ? Do they have spermuell ? Are there any folk festivals ? Have they kept any german traditions at all ?
Yes, to varying degrees and with variance by region.
My counterpoint would be that a person of Russian genetic extraction doing these things does not make him German. Just like a person of Anglo genetic extraction engaging in African language and culture does not make him Congolese.
It follows that a person of German extraction not doing these things does not strip him of his status as "Germanic".
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I understand your point of view but to me blood alone is not enough to call yourself something .
There is just no excuse , if someone is too lazy to even learn the basics of the language he can hardly call himself a german .
There is unquestionably a genetic connotation to "German", historically and in shorthand for speaking about modern genetics. Though, some other unrelated people can mimic German-ness. We can agree to disagree.
"German" is essentially a linguistic placeholder to keep from having to reference pure haplotype alphanumeric designations. If you wish to reserve "German" for culture, then we can strip it of its genetic meaning, for the benefit of the conversation, and replace it with another purely genetic term. Let me know what would be more acceptable. I can default to haplotype codes that will, regardless, mostly group by ethnic tribal designation like "Dutch".
Ask yourself this:
Are the Flemish and Dutch close friends or competitors? Does the border matter or doesn't it, really?
Why is this, and why does this relationship differ from their respective relationship with, say, the Saxons, the Bavarians, or the Poles?
Respectfully, denial of political reality can make us feel noble, but not operating within the confines of reality is harmful to our ability to navigate it.
You aren't really understanding. There are not "plenty" of these other farming families, as a matter of percentage. It is mostly unique to German Americans.
Most groups have their preferred economic mode. There may be some Anglo farmers, but I assure you that isn't the historical nor preferred economic mode for the large group. Thus, most USA farmers do not have an Anglo-Saxon heritage. You will find them to be more common in New England, but this region is not a primary farming region. It is too forested. Anglos live here to engage in non-farming, non-manufacturing economic modes. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Eastern PA, Virginia, and the coastal Southeast. All mostly forested and/or with a large port or political center present.
Most Irish and Scots inhabit either urban regions or the wasteland forested regions where manufacturing or mining was once dominant.
I really do understand . Americans of german heritage are farmers in midwest . But there are also other regions of united states . What about farmers in a very large region of south ? They are mostly of british heritage .
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Originally Posted by golgi1
So, a legal qualification? That's your perspective preference. Though, in m experience, the only true delineation is genetic. Strip people of their cultures, and some genetically rooted behaviors remain. That's been my experience living in the most diverse nation on Earth for my entire life.
Not legal . Cultural . Genetic means nothing in Germany's case as Germany is on the crossroads of Europe and is very mixed genetically . There were germanic tribes , celtic tribes , slavic tribes involved in creating german nation . Germany is not Iceland or even Sweden . Not even close . Germans have big variety of apperances . From Gerd Mueller to Toni Kroos .
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Originally Posted by golgi1
Yes, to varying degrees and with variance by region.
Out of over 50 millions of americans of german heritage , how many percent ? Is that even 0,5 percent ?
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Originally Posted by golgi1
There is unquestionably a genetic connotation to "German", historically and in shorthand for speaking about modern genetics. Though, some other unrelated people can mimic German-ness. We can agree to disagree.
"German" is essentially a linguistic placeholder to keep from having to reference pure haplotype alphanumeric designations. If you wish to reserve "German" for culture, then we can strip it of its genetic meaning, for the benefit of the conversation, and replace it with another purely genetic term. Would "Nordic" be more acceptable? If not, let me know what would be. I can default to haplotype codes that will, regardless, mostly group by ethnic tribal designation.
The whole concept of german nation is based only on culture , not on genetics . Already in ancient times germanic tribes were absorbing people of different tribes . What is now east Germany was almost fully slavic in medieval times . Colonizers from west mixed with them . Those people are now as german as those from Bremen or Hamburg . In southern Germany there were celtic tribes , which also got germanized . Germany is not only of germanic genetic heritage but also of others . Culture is what makes you a German , not genetics . I can enlist you plenty of examples of germans with foreign surnames who are completely assimilated and there is absolutely no differences in behaviour , culture between them and germans with german surnames .The only language , the only culture they know is german .
Though, in m experience, the only true delineation is genetic. Strip people of their cultures, and some genetically rooted behaviors remain. That's been my experience living in the most diverse nation on Earth for my entire life.
Interesting, I've never met somebody from Papua New Guinea on here. You should share some more of your experience there.
I don't think genetics among European ethnic groups differ enough to cause differences in their behavior. I'm not even sure that is the case when comparing Asians with Europeans with Africans. Westpreussen is correct, it's mainly your environment that shapes your behavior and makes you what you are, not genetics. The Russian "doing these things" is very much a German and an Anglo engaging in African language and culture would very much be "Congolese" (which is not really a cultural / ethnic idenity) if it weren't for the obvious physical differences.
Interesting, I've never met somebody from Papua New Guinea on here. You should share some more of your experience there.
I don't think genetics among European ethnic groups differ enough to cause differences in their behavior. I'm not even sure that is the case when comparing Asians with Europeans with Africans. Westpreussen is correct, it's mainly your environment that shapes your behavior and makes you what you are, not genetics. The Russian "doing these things" is very much a German and an Anglo engaging in African language and culture would very much be "Congolese" (which is not really a cultural / ethnic idenity) if it weren't for the obvious physical differences.
My question then would be - but why the cultures differ to begin with?
Let's forget about "Congolese" - because even European cultures differ from each other.
So who/what created them to begin with, if there is no difference between a German and a Russian, ( or a French), why the "national character" of every nation is different?
Sure, you can place a French ( or a Briton) in Germany, and the "environment will shape his behavior," turning him into a German ( supposedly,) however WHO created this particular " German environment" to begin with? And why is it different from French ( or Russian) *environment?*
My question then would be - but why the cultures differ to begin with?
Let's forget about "Congolese" - because even European cultures differ from each other.
So who/what created them to begin with, if there is no difference between a German and a Russian, ( or a French), why the "national character" of every nation is different?
Sure, you can place a French ( or a Briton) in Germany, and the "environment will shape his behavior," turning him into a German ( supposedly,) however WHO created this particular " German environment" to begin with? And why is it different from French ( or Russian) *environment?*
That is an interesting question that is hard to answer for a non-anthropologist. I am sure there is no gene to make Germans become farmers or Brits move to cities like that one poster suggested. There is also no gene to make Germans enjoy Oktoberfest and Polish like Polka. This idea is more than ridiculous. Most white Americans are just average white mainstream, no matter where their ancestors came from.
My guess is that culture mainly used to depend on environmental factors like climate. Many festivals are seasonal, the food is seasonal, whether you are a farmer or a hunter used to depend on the availability of crops and prey. The spread of religions is another factor. There used to be much more cultural diversity within today's national borders due to more isolation. There never was *one* Italian/Russian/French/German culture up to the middle ages.
It was actually very popular show in Europe . My teenage cousins watched it . I actually saw one season where those italian americans came to Italy . Only one of them spoke broken italian because his mother was immigrant from sicily . The rest of them did not know a word of italian . They all found out to have not much in common with people there and could not wait to get back to America .
I was a bit dissappointed that they chose to send those kids to Florence rather than Naples.
The contrast within Italian culture from the heritage of the Jersey Shore kids (however tenuous) couldn't have been much more stark.
Was Angela Merkel's father german (his father was polish) ? Is Antoine Griezmann french (he has german surname from his father side and his grandparents on his mother's side are portugese) ? Is David Silva spanish (his one grandparent is japanese ) ? What are americans ? They are all one big mix and most of them do not have american ancestry . People mix and always have mixed . There is no such thing as pure nation . Over 30 percent of people in Poland have surnames of foreign origins and they consider themselves polish . I know plenty of germans with polish surnames who have nothing to do with Poland and consider themselves just germans . People accommodate , they always have , usually already in second generation .
I agree. A pure nation wouldn't last that long anyway, with adverse genetic mutations killing them off.
That is an interesting question that is hard to answer for a non-anthropologist.
And I suspect that anthropology/anthropologists can't answer this question as well.
What it looks like to me, is that the whole "cultural anthropology" is mostly an American thing, a highly subjective *science*, and even the "icon" of said above *science* has been doubted by other researchers.
I am sure there is no gene to make Germans become farmers or Brits move to cities like that one poster suggested.
And au contraire, I suspect that THERE IS a gene that makes one a good farmer and another one - a better tradesman.
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There is also no gene to make Germans enjoy Oktoberfest and Polish like Polka.
No, what the "gene" does, is make someone to do a diligent, thorough job day in and day out, ( farming in this case) and when celebrating, the process goes in the same manner - thoroughly and wholeheartedly.
And I don't know about "Polka," but it takes certain "gene" yet again to do this ( particularly in the military uniform,)
So even if (hypothetical) Pole ( or Englishman) will live in Senegal ( or Mali in this case,) he will NEVER be able to move like that. And THAT's what the "cultural heritage" is all about; people that carry the gene, that identifies the "ethnic traits" of any ethnic group. And as long as the "core" of this group is alive and well, as long as people carrying that specific gene are still around, you can ADD different genes in small portions, that can be assimilated into any particular group, without destroying the core features and cultural heritage of any given ethnicity. Once the *foreign* genes will start outnumbering the host, the cultural heritage will be destroyed as well.
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This idea is more than ridiculous. Most white Americans are just average white mainstream, no matter where their ancestors came from.
Not really. I've noticed that the Whites in New York are predominantly of Jewish or Italian ancestry, the British/Irish heritage is more pronounced on the East Coast, and Germans that settled in the farmlands of Midwest are hard to pull out from their places, where they live generation after generation.
Normally America should be all about "mobility," but let me tell you, in Wisconsin they don't like the "newcomers" and they don't like to leave their "homeland" too, ( even though my instructor in college told me long time ago, that "head hunters" from different states are coming to Wisconsin to hire locals straight from college, (to lure them out of their dens apparently, lol,) because they are known to be a good workers.
And yes, they DO come across as diligent people, but when the Octoberfest comes here, they run wild too, and boy do they drink and party)))) I used to put three pillows over my head.
So I guess that "German gene" is alive and well after all, even though they are oblivious to German language here.
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My guess is that culture mainly used to depend on environmental factors like climate. Many festivals are seasonal, the food is seasonal, whether you are a farmer or a hunter used to depend on the availability of crops and prey. The spread of religions is another factor. There used to be much more cultural diversity within today's national borders due to more isolation. There never was *one* Italian/Russian/French/German culture up to the middle ages.
That's because I suspect that modern nations were born/created as a result of the combination of few different genetic components, specific for every nation. And most likely the process of creation of this "genetic composition" was accomplished by the middle ages more or less.
Not really. I've noticed that the Whites in New York are predominantly of Jewish or Italian ancestry, the British/Irish heritage is more pronounced on the East Coast, and Germans that settled in the farmlands of Midwest are hard to pull out from their places, where they live generation after generation.
Germans , polish , italian and pretty much all of nationalites around the world who live in farmland usualy live there from generations and are hard to pull out from there . It is not limited only to germans . And there are a lot of americans of german ethnicity in every american region not only in midwest, where they live generation after generation like most people , so what ? Irish and british heritage is also very frequent throughout all of the four regions of the united states , not only on the east coast usualy mixed with other ethnicities including german .
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Originally Posted by erasure
And yes, they DO come across as diligent people, but when the Octoberfest comes here, they run wild too, and boy do they drink and party)))) I used to put three pillows over my head.
So I guess that "German gene" is alive and well after all, even though they are oblivious to German language here.
There is no german gene at all , so I do not know what you are talking about . What are these german traits that represent whole germany ? The ones from Prussia or Bavaria ? Because you know , they are nothing alike . So how there can be a german "gene" when Germany have always been very regional country with variety of customs and big regional differences . It makes me laugh where for example foreigners equate lederhosen with Germany . It has nothing to do with far majority of Germany . It is just one of many different , regional things . Can you explain to me why consientiousness and perfection at work stereotype of german is coming from Prussians which were of heavily balto-slavic extriction ? According to your views shouldn't the slavic "gene" destroy those values ? I mean slavic countries are stereotypicaly known for everythnig opposite to these values ? So why didn't this supposed "gene" destroy it ? Maybe because those values come more from lutheran religion and prussian culture and genes have nothing to do with it ? Yes I think it is an answer .
And most germans are hardly heavy party animals . Those are the traits more of irish , british , polish people . Most germans are responsible drinkers and do not get smashed , even though they like to drink beer , which also comes from culture and not any genes , which are heavily mixed . So it is the next proof that the Americans of german heritage have very little in common with actual Germans .
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Originally Posted by erasure
That's because I suspect that modern nations were born/created as a result of the combination of few different genetic components, specific for every nation. And most likely the process of creation of this "genetic composition" was accomplished by the middle ages more or less.
By the middle ages german people from the west were just starting to colonize the east and mix with slavic , baltic people there and germanize them . Those people will eventually be expelled to the west Germany and will mix even more with Germans there .
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I used to put three pillows over my head. 
