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And you don't have to be a majority to germanize . Bulgarians were turkic tribe and yet they speak slavic language . Hungarians speak ugric language , even though , they are obiously mostly of european descend .
What's the connection between these two sentences - I don't understand, sorry.
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Only about 20 percents of todays turks are descendants of those people who conquered Constantinople . And yet they all are turks now and share the same values and customs and habits . Genes have nothing to do with it . Only culture .
GENES have a lot to do with it ( and so of course is Islamic culture in this case.)
The majority of former Eastern European population is mixed with Asians (the percentage of this admixture varies of course.) Now add to this Islamic upbringing and the new (Turkish) nation is born.
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There is no any melting pot myth . What is now and what used to be Germany was not inhabited only by germanic tribes , but in very large portions also by slavic , baltic and celtic tribes .
Whatever these "large portions" are - German genetic material still looks different from near-by Poles or other Slavic countries.
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Germans have big variety of the looks . How can they not be mixed geneticaly ? Of course they are .
Again - their "genetic mixture" is specific for Germans. Of course all modern European nations are born as the result of mixture of few tribes, they are not descendants of just ONE tribe in every case.
But that doesn't mean that these combinations are all "the same across the line," and hence "everyone is mixed genetically" and there is no difference.
This is not true.
I'll repeat again; every modern European nation was not born of one single tribe, but as the result of the mixture of a few, specific to the area.
So ORIGINALLY genetically they are all different, in spite of some overlapping.
Of course lately immigration happen more often because of economic reasons for the most part, but this still doesn't change the fact.
Just look at the DNK map one more time. It's quite telling.
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I see a lot of colours there . All of these countries look very mixed . Only Spain , Wales , Scotland look like they had one dominant (more than 80 percent ) group . Germany looks very mixed . I do not think that even one of its haplogroups is over 50 percent . It really proves how mixed geneticaly this nation is .
Yes, in different combinations and different proportions.
That's precisely the point.
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National character exist but it derives from culture and upbringing , not from this supposed genes (and as you showed most countries are very mixed geneticaly ) .
And where does the "culture and upbringing" come from?
Why do you think one culture is different from the other?
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Bohemians and kashubians are both west slavic people , and yet because they were for so long time under german influence they resemble germans far more , than for example Poles . If your theory was right that would not be possible .
No they don't.
They are just more on a quiet side than the rest of Slavs)))
( Yes, their ORIGINAL culture has been suppressed for long time, so what's a big surprise here?)
No not trying to insult, just amazed that there are still people on here that have what is quite frankly 'Victorian' views when it comes to race or nationality, I have noticed that the Eastern Europeans I work with and many that post on here are still nationalistic and in some cases racist when it comes to genetics.
I don't know about this forum specifically, but yes, what you say has truth to it.
Eastern Europeans are more racist in their unacceptance of different races in their midst.
As I've already mentioned, I suspect that they actually SHARE MORE, have more in common with other races than Western Europeans culturally-speaking, and hence the rejection.
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For a start I don't think you have any idea at how mixed 21st Century populations are and to claim that Germans are 'good farmers' because they are German and somehow genetically 'different' is ludicrous to say the least!
Actually I never even thought of Germans as "farmers" before - I was always associating them rather with science and engineering. Whenever I'd think of "farming," I was always automatically associating it with Russian villagers.
So this is kinda a new realization for me.
And yes, I understand "how mixed" 21st Century population is, but that doesn't change the fact, that every European nation has its own original genetic core.
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My daughter and my sister have both done Ancestry DNA tests, both are born and bred in the UK (about 20 miles apart), one is black, one is white, both sound alike, both are very 'British' in their behaviour DUE TO THEIR BRITISH UPBRINGING AND NOT DUE TO THEIR GENETICS, both have DNA from not only across Europe but from further afield, both are as British (specifically English) as Fish and Chips and football yet STILL (some) people seem to believe that the English are some kind of pure bred 'Anglo Saxon' race, its ridiculous!
I see no point of arguing with you.
Believe in what you wish.
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The only Germans that make 'good farmers' are Germans that make 'good farmers'
As I've said, I didn't realize for long time that they were as good farmers as they were engineers.
I never thought of them as "farmers" before, ( although I should have.)
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you don't have to be Russian to dance like a Cossack,
But you have to be a Russian to CREATE this dance.
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you don't have to be Jamaican to make good reggae music!
But without someone being Jamaican we wouldn't have reggae music to begin with.
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What makes a 'difference' in people is their up-bringing and not their genetics.
So how can I raise someone to come up with Reggae music?
And why couldn't Russians come up with it, instead of Cossack dance?
No it's not.
That's why we need to look into their birthplaces closer;
William Frawley
Burlington, Iowa 25,663
"Burlington was a bustling river port in the steamboat era and a central city to the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad. The "Burlington Route" (1848–1970) merged into the Burlington Northern Railroad (1970–1996), which in turn merged into the BNSF Railway (1997–present). The "Burlington" name has been given to one of the United States' largest railroads. One of BNSF's main east-west lines still crosses the Mississippi at Burlington. In the late twentieth century, retail expanded with suburbanization of the population."
Although Iowa seems to be full of German settlers, this particular city is not agricultural one, and hence it comes as a mixed kind of place in terms of population.
Clark Gable Cadiz, Ohio 3,353 population?
"Early industry was based on agriculture and processing farm products"?
Yep, our kind of place ( i.e. small agricultural town,) and German heritage pops up here;
"William Clark Gable was born on February 1, 1901 in Cadiz, Ohio, to Adeline (Hershelman) and William Henry Gable, an oil-well driller. He was of German, Irish, and Swiss-German descent."
"Following removal of the Potawatomi to a reservation, the first permanent white settlements in Battle Creek Township began about 1831. Migration had increased to Michigan from New York and New England following the completion of the Erie Canal in New York in 1824."
"A historic furniture-manufacturing center, Grand Rapids is home to five of the world's leading office furniture companies, and is nicknamed Furniture City."
NOT agricultural and NOT German place; its history is full of French and Anglo-names.
Largest city of the state, with about 400,000 population
"The economy of Omaha boomed and busted through its early years. Omaha was a stopping point for settlers and prospectors heading west, either overland or via the Missouri River. The steamboat Bertrand sank north of Omaha on its way to the goldfields in 1865. Its massive collection of artifacts is on display at the nearby Desoto National Wildlife Refuge. The jobbing and wholesaling district brought new jobs, followed by the railroads and the stockyards.[35]"
Hhmmm... SMALL, agricultural, rural...let's see here..
Scroll down, and look at the map, what language was predominatly spoken in that particular county)).
"The city of Hermann is considered the center of German culture in Missouri, but the language once spoken throughout this area mostly lives on in rural, isolated areas. Terry and his wife run a farm outside the town of McKittrick, Mo., in Montgomery County, just north of Hermann. He grew up on a farm, too. Most of the German-speaking Missourians in this area were winemakers and farmers. That’s where he first started picking up the language in phrases like "it's time to milk the cows."
Now how could the Anglo have been born in German place, I have no idea, but it looks like her small town was incorporated into Vernon county)))
Now who is next?..
Paul Newman?
Born in Shaker Heights, Ohio - at about 28,000
"Shaker Heights was a planned community developed by the Van Sweringen brothers, railroad moguls who envisioned the community as a suburban retreat from the industrial inner city of Cleveland." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaker_Heights,_Ohio
Nope, not agricultural, not German.
Next..
Dick York
Fort Wayne, Indiana -about 419, 000
"Fort Wayne was built in 1794 by the United States Army under the direction of American Revolutionary War general Anthony Wayne, the last in a series of forts built near the Miami village of Kekionga.[15] Named in Wayne's honor, the European-American settlement developed at the confluence of the St. Joseph, St. Marys, and Maumee rivers as a trading post for pioneers.[16] The village was platted in 1823 and underwent tremendous growth after completion of the Wabash and Erie Canal and advent of the railroad.[16] Once a booming manufacturing town located in what became known as the Rust Belt, Fort Wayne's economy in the 21st century is based upon distribution, transportation and logistics, healthcare, professional and business services, leisure and hospitality, and financial services.[17] The city is a center for the defense industry which employs thousands.[18]"
So self-explanatory and no German settlements either.
Tippi Hedren
New Ulm, population about 13, 000
NOW we are talking;
"The city was founded in 1854[9] by the German Land Company of Chicago. The city was named after the city of Neu-Ulm in the state of Bavaria in southern Germany.[10] Ulm and Neu-Ulm are sister cities, with Ulm being situated on the Baden-Württemberg side and Neu-Ulm on the Bavarian side of the Danube river. In part due to the city's German heritage, it is a center for brewing in the Upper Midwest, home to the August Schell Brewing Company."
Well sorry to say, Germans share Minnesota with the Scandies ( both Norwegians and Swedes,) same ( or even more) than in Wisconsin.
(But you already see at least partial German heritage in this case.)
Gena Rowlands
Madison, Wisconsin - capitol of the state, 450,000
Not an agricultural place.
James Dean
Marion, Indiana about 29,000
"Marion grew slowly for more than 50 years as an agricultural trading center supported by a sprinkling of small farm- and forest-related industries. Native Americans were a common sight as they wandered in from Indiana's last reservation, with its Indian school, Baptist Church, and cemetery, 8 miles (13 km) away.
In the 1880s, fields of natural gas were discovered across much of east-central Indiana, and Grant County began to grow at a dizzying pace. Gas City and Matthews were carved out of raw farmland and launched as speculative boom towns, each absorbing existing tiny villages. "
Hmm... Farmlands - could it, or could it be...?
I had to check on German presence in Indiana, since I am not familiar with this particular state at all, so here we go;
"Germans formed the largest immigrant group to come to Indiana before the late twentieth century, but they were not as numerous there as in many other states. Germans began a colony at New Harmony in 1814. However, they were gone by 1825, and their land was sold to Robert Owen and a group of British utopians."
So yet again self-explanatory.
James Tolkan
Calumet, Michigan
"Calumet (/ˌkæljuːˈmɛt/ KAL-yoo-MET) is a village in Calumet Township, Houghton County, in the U.S. state of Michigan's Upper Peninsula, that was once at the center of the mining industry of the Upper Peninsula."
And then we have a lot of Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis for birth places.
Do we need to go any further?
I only meant those particular examples from small towns and rural areas of midwest not whole list of them . Not one of full german ancestry . One big melting pot whether from big cities or small towns . Untill I see many examples of people from small towns of midwest with only german heritage , I won't believe they outnumber those with mixed heritage . As you said with Clark Gable , our kind of place and yet he is of mixed ancestry . Big surprise ? Not really .
Last edited by WestPreussen; 05-04-2018 at 03:27 AM..
What's the connection between these two sentences - I don't understand, sorry.
GENES have a lot to do with it ( and so of course is Islamic culture in this case.)
The majority of former Eastern European population is mixed with Asians (the percentage of this admixture varies of course.) Now add to this Islamic upbringing and the new (Turkish) nation is born.
Whatever these "large portions" are - German genetic material still looks different from near-by Poles or other Slavic countries.
Again - their "genetic mixture" is specific for Germans. Of course all modern European nations are born as the result of mixture of few tribes, they are not descendants of just ONE tribe in every case.
But that doesn't mean that these combinations are all "the same across the line," and hence "everyone is mixed genetically" and there is no difference.
This is not true.
I'll repeat again; every modern European nation was not born of one single tribe, but as the result of the mixture of a few, specific to the area.
So ORIGINALLY genetically they are all different, in spite of some overlapping.
Of course lately immigration happen more often because of economic reasons for the most part, but this still doesn't change the fact.
Just look at the DNK map one more time. It's quite telling.
Yes, in different combinations and different proportions.
That's precisely the point.
And where does the "culture and upbringing" come from?
Why do you think one culture is different from the other?
No they don't.
They are just more on a quiet side than the rest of Slavs)))
( Yes, their ORIGINAL culture has been suppressed for long time, so what's a big surprise here?)
I respect your point of view , but I just disagree . For me if you put an irish or german toddler into afghan or indian family , he will be totally like them when he grows up and there will be no difference between him and his native afghan and native indian siblings . Genes will not matter , only the culture and environment that he would be brought up with . I honestly have hard time to believe that it is even debatable . Look at Bosnia and Albania , they are europeans and yet they are muslims . Their european genes did not prevent them from adopting their new religion and new customs .. That is the next prove of people assimilating and changing their culture under foreign stronger cultural influence with their genes not mattering at all . I think we said all that was to be said . I respect your opinion but completely disagree .
Last edited by WestPreussen; 05-04-2018 at 03:24 AM..
I don't know about this forum specifically, but yes, what you say has truth to it.
Eastern Europeans are more racist in their unacceptance of different races in their midst.
As I've already mentioned, I suspect that they actually SHARE MORE, have more in common with other races than Western Europeans culturally-speaking, and hence the rejection.
Actually I never even thought of Germans as "farmers" before - I was always associating them rather with science and engineering. Whenever I'd think of "farming," I was always automatically associating it with Russian villagers.
So this is kinda a new realization for me.
And yes, I understand "how mixed" 21st Century population is, but that doesn't change the fact, that every European nation has its own original genetic core.
I see no point of arguing with you.
Believe in what you wish.
As I've said, I didn't realize for long time that they were as good farmers as they were engineers.
I never thought of them as "farmers" before, ( although I should have.)
But you have to be a Russian to CREATE this dance.
But without someone being Jamaican we wouldn't have reggae music to begin with.
So how can I raise someone to come up with Reggae music?
And why couldn't Russians come up with it, instead of Cossack dance?
So tell me why do you have to be Russian to CREATE that dance?
I respect your point of view , but I just disagree . For me if you put an irish or german toddler into afghan or indian family , he will be totally like them when he grows up and there will be no difference between him and his native afghan and native indian siblings .
I can't completely agree with that. Chances are, that when this toddler grows up, not only his/her own looks will tell him/her that he is of the "different tribe," but most likely he/she would start questioning the practices around.
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Genes will not matter , only the culture and environment that he would be brought up with . I honestly have hard time to believe that it is even debatable . Look at Bosnia and Albania , they are europeans and yet they are muslims . Their european genes did not prevent them from adopting their new religion and new customs .. That is the next prove of people assimilating and changing their culture under foreign stronger cultural influence with their genes not mattering at all . I think we said all that was to be said . I respect your opinion but completely disagree .
They didn't CHOOSE to adopt the "new religion." They were FORCED to accept its customs.
Apparently, you don't understand the nature of Islam.
I only meant those particular examples from small towns and rural areas of midwest not whole list of them . Not one of full german ancestry . One big melting pot whether from big cities or small towns . Untill I see many examples of people from small towns of midwest with only german heritage , I won't believe they outnumber those with mixed heritage . As you said with Clark Gable , our kind of place and yet he is of mixed ancestry . Big surprise ? Not really .
What "full list of them?'
I pointed at the fact that practically none of the birth places of these actors were the places of German settlements.
Yes, being Americans, MOST of them are of mixed ancestry.
However there is a "mixed ancestry" and there is a "mixed ancestry."
In case of German enclaves in the Midwest, German ancestry ( along with some other additions) can still be easily traced. That's different from a lot of other Americans, who have very vague idea who their ancestors were on both sides of the family.
They didn't CHOOSE to adopt the "new religion." They were FORCED to accept its customs.
Apparently, you don't understand the nature of Islam.
They were not forced to anything . Serbians , Hungarians , Bulgarians , Greeks were all under ottoman rule , yet those people are Christians . That's because they chose it . Bosnians and Albanians chose to adopt islam , they were not forced to it . Those are historical facts . Why would Bosnians and Albanians be forced and other nationalities like Greeks , Serbians , Bulgarians wouldn't be ? Your opinion does not make sense .
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Originally Posted by erasure
What "full list of them?'
I pointed at the fact that practically none of the birth places of these actors were the places of German settlements.
Yes, being Americans, MOST of them are of mixed ancestry.
However there is a "mixed ancestry" and there is a "mixed ancestry."
In case of German enclaves in the Midwest, German ancestry ( along with some other additions) can still be easily traced. That's different from a lot of other Americans, who have very vague idea who their ancestors were on both sides of the family.
Many of these actors like Jessica Biel , Clark Gable , Jessica Lange and other I enlisted before are from small towns in Midwest and are mixed . German settlement was prominent throughout whole United States , especially small towns in midwest . As you said they have german ancestry .along with other additions . That is exactly what I meant . That they are not of only german descend . But it does not matter because even if they were of only german descend there is nothing german about them . Period . Germans live in Germany . Germans speak german . And as Rob who grew up in Germany and lived in Wisconsin said there is nothing in common between german and americans of german descend . Those are totally different people . If someone like them came to Germany and said in english that they are german but they can't speak german , those real Germans from Germany would be very confused to say the least .
Last edited by WestPreussen; 05-05-2018 at 04:56 PM..
So tell me why do you have to be Russian to CREATE that dance?
I would think that dance ( as much as music) reflect the national character. It channels emotional side into the art, and that's why you have to be of certain spirit to create this or that kind of art.
They were not forced to anything . Serbians , Hungarians , Bulgarians , Greeks were all under ottoman rule , yet those people are Christians . That's because they chose it . Bosnians and Albanians chose to adopt islam , they were not forced to it . Those are historical facts . Why would Bosnians and Albanians be forced and other nationalities like Greeks , Serbians , Bulgarians wouldn't be ? Your opinion does not make sense .
Are we ( the former Soviet citizens) the only ones that were taught the World history in secondary schools ( and history of church as part of the curriculum,) or what?
It's not my "opinion" we are talking about here - these are historic facts.
See, before Turkish ( Islamic) conquest, ALL these people were Christians - Bosnians and Albanians including.
But some areas in Balkans ( such as Serbia and Bulgaria for example) had already more prominently established Orthodox Church, and when forced to convert into Islam, the population of these countries have put up a fierce resistance ( for which it was constantly persecuted.) And SOME areas ( such as Bosnia and Albania) were a battleground for dominance between Catholic ( Western) and Orthodox ( Eastern) Christian churches. This is the reason most likely why Christianity didn't take hold there in the same manner as it was in other areas, and thus it was easier for Turks to submit population of Bosnia and Albania under Islam.
So while Serbia and Bulgaria were liberated ( with Russian help) from Islamic oppression, and these countries returned to their Christian faith, Islam remained in Albania and Bosnia ( even after the Turks left,) because its institutions were already stronger than previous Christian faith ( that was not prominently established there to begin with.)
And there you have it.
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Many of these actors like Jessica Biel , Clark Gable , Jessica Lange and other I enlisted before are from small towns in Midwest and are mixed .
Because those SPECIFIC TOWNS where they were born ( which were not all that "small" to begin with) WERE NOT the places of German settlements. That's why I went into detailed explanations, what each and every town was all about ( its economy first of all,) to point why they were NOT chosen by German communities, and thus, consisted of mostly Anglo/ mixed population instead.
( Yet another food for a thought; Hollywood was not seeking out, apparently, the German village type for its movie production.)
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