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The rebels had control of every tactical aspect all across the AO. Their mobile forces reacted quickly and correctly the bypassed strong points didn't panic and prevented any reinforcements from following the main force. Another bunch of jolly fools decided to camp in the middle of a field and the guys left behind called down artillery on them in the middle of the night, wiping them out. These were the reinforcements the meatheads in Ilovaisk called for.
You see how that worked? The militias were utterly incompetent. It wasn't the Russians that beat them. That ship of fools sunk itself. I have no doubt that there was Russian citizens there and from what I heard also Russian servicemen who shall we say went on vacation from their regular units. There was no Russian army there. If there had been it would have been over much quicker than it was...
The reason Putin's rebels had success was because of fire support brought in from the rear. His rebels launched the cutoff attack from the Russian border. How you define who they were (not official Russian army) doesn't change the fact that this was a Russian supported attack on a mixed Ukrainian army unit.
Putin's problem: no matter the information war, the guys who were there and attacked were mixed from every city in Ukraine. Some came home to previously very pro Russian cities with stories of being attacked from the Russian border. They don't care if the insignia was painted over, they took that as an assault from Russia. It changed the point of view of many Ukrainians from that point forward, including some of my own friends and family who were extremely pro Russian/ Yanukovich supporters before this. They went from hoping to see Putin rescue Ukraine from the banderovitsy, to swearing they would float headless corpses of Russian green men down the Dnieper if they ever came to their city. Just my own perspective, everyone has their own.
Do you think, that Russians hope this? I am not sure...
Yes Putin does want this. I am sure because his propaganda pushes towards this goal. It attacks Ukraine's government and promotes pro Russian "Opp Block" in Ukraine or its positions at least. He is hoping for a Moldova situation where the ruling party gets thrown out due to whatever and the pro Russian opposition takes over. Its not working at the moment, but things can change. One way to achieve success would be to cut Europe's support for Ukraine. Another way would be to break the EU apart so its not as attractive to Ukrainians. Essentially the people there are faced with a choice, reform along Poland's path and become European in the next decade or slide into Russian style kleptocracy with repression and little rule of law/corruption. All of Putin's propaganda supports what I'm saying. You can see it even here on this thread. I'm sure he would be happy if the western part of Ukraine broke away. Very few of them speak Russian so his propaganda has little effect there and it will always be a thorn in his side.
What Russian people want does not matter to Vlad. What Ukraine wants and needs matters less.
Statement of glaring ignorance. You break it you fix it and Putin wants nothing to do with that basket case of a country. Its a liability not an asset. If Putin wanted it he would have it but he's no George Bush. He actually has a brain.
I think that he is much more dangerous than Stalin for other countries. And he is much safer for Russians.
How so? I think he made a big mistake holding back with Ukraine. He should have invaded. There are people in the west that want to plow your country under Max. They have no regard for the price people like you will pay. You had one Stalin, the west has many and we're going down that path. They're slowly winning.
The reason Putin's rebels had success was because of fire support brought in from the rear. His rebels launched the cutoff attack from the Russian border. How you define who they were (not official Russian army) doesn't change the fact that this was a Russian supported attack on a mixed Ukrainian army unit.
Look at a map ffs. To maneuver an armored force you need space. A Soviet mechanized corp spread out over an area up to 15 miles wide and 30 miles deep. Just one of those would cover most of the region south of Donetsk. That's about the size of the AO of this battle. A Soviet Corp had 20k to 40k troops depending on its composition. The rebels had at most 4k in the area. The rebels were BEHIND the city of Donetsk and the rebels were fixed there. That was the anvil. The hammer came from the SE AFTER rebels moved mobile forces from the north to Metalist and points further south close to the Russian border. They place all their artillery in a line NNE to the east of Donetsk parallel with the road the rebels used. That cutoff force was not Russians, it was bypassed troops reinforced with other units from elsewhere on both sides of the corridor. A lot of them attacked from the SE towards Donetsk.
They were there close to the border and artillery fire was coming from the SE but it was not Russian artillery, it was the rebels next to the border and along it. They also had artillery due east of Donetsk. You can believe what you like but Russia only had border troops in the area at the time. I've never seen any evidence from that area otherwise, no guns in fields no MLRS or other systems. There'd be evidence, a lot of people watched that battle.
Yes Putin does want this. I am sure because his propaganda pushes towards this goal. It attacks Ukraine's government and promotes pro Russian "Opp Block" in Ukraine or its positions at least. He is hoping for a Moldova situation where the ruling party gets thrown out due to whatever and the pro Russian opposition takes over. Its not working at the moment, but things can change. One way to achieve success would be to cut Europe's support for Ukraine. Another way would be to break the EU apart so its not as attractive to Ukrainians. Essentially the people there are faced with a choice, reform along Poland's path and become European in the next decade or slide into Russian style kleptocracy with repression and little rule of law/corruption. All of Putin's propaganda supports what I'm saying. You can see it even here on this thread. I'm sure he would be happy if the western part of Ukraine broke away. Very few of them speak Russian so his propaganda has little effect there and it will always be a thorn in his side.
Look at a map ffs. To maneuver an armored force you need space. A Soviet mechanized corp spread out over an area up to 15 miles wide and 30 miles deep. Just one of those would cover most of the region south of Donetsk. That's about the size of the AO of this battle. A Soviet Corp had 20k to 40k troops depending on its composition. The rebels had at most 4k in the area. The rebels were BEHIND the city of Donetsk and the rebels were fixed there. That was the anvil. The hammer came from the SE AFTER rebels moved mobile forces from the north to Metalist and points further south close to the Russian border. They place all their artillery in a line NNE to the east of Donetsk parallel with the road the rebels used. That cutoff force was not Russians, it was bypassed troops reinforced with other units from elsewhere on both sides of the corridor. A lot of them attacked from the SE towards Donetsk.
They were there close to the border and artillery fire was coming from the SE but it was not Russian artillery, it was the rebels next to the border and along it. They also had artillery due east of Donetsk. You can believe what you like but Russia only had border troops in the area at the time. I've never seen any evidence from that area otherwise, no guns in fields no MLRS or other systems. There'd be evidence, a lot of people watched that battle.
Deny facts all you want, that's your job afterall. But to try to claim that some home grown army mysteriously slid along the Ukrainian side of the Russian border, past all the Ukrainian checkpoints without being seen and opened fire just from inside the Russian border without Russian support? That's fantasy and nobody would believe it. The Ukrainian army had control of the entire border with Russia from Saurivka to NovoAzovsk. These are the people I'm talking about who were attacked from inside Russia. They weren't outflanked, they were attacked from across the border. There's loads of evidence online about this, but it comes down to denying what you see. You can claim those units firing at Ukrainians were not official Russian army, but that doesn't change a thing.
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