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You do not mind that in this area, at this very time was deployed Ukrainian air defense with these very beeches?
Of course Ukraine deployed air defense to the area, just in case rebel aircraft suddenly came into play though there have been none, But if they did not have air defense and all of a sudden rebels deployed aircraft, Ukrainian forces would have been sitting ducks. I also suspect Ukrainian operators have better training than the rebels in the use of such equipment.
But I still think the blame is primarily among two parties, Kiev and the commercial operators. Common sense says do not allow commercial aircraft over a war zone in which aircraft have been getting shot down. A mistake can easily happen and it has happened, even among forces with advanced training and technology, like the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335
Agreed overall. The crew of the BUK may not have been experienced enough to use it correctly or the hardware may not have been fully functional leading to the downing of the aircraft. If there was an off signal it is possible it was missed but do we know for sure the aircraft's off was on and working? I don't know the facts on this subject.
I do have it on good authority that the BUK was not given to the rebels by Russia. It was jacked from a arsenal around Mariupol and when things went bad Russia demanded it be given to them.
I do think it is all plausible including the possibility of a rogue missile.
No, the BUK crew was not experienced, and I doubt they had the whole BUK package deployed. But as I stated above, the fault in my opinion still primarily is with those who allowed the planes to fly over even when they knew there was anti-air operations going on.
It still has not been determined where the BUK came from, even though they stated the missile fragment indicated Russian. But given how poorly maintained and tracked Ukrainian arms have been over the years, I doubt anyone can say with accuracy what Ukrainian has or does not have. The Donbass area had a lot of Ukrainian weapons that the rebels seized. My opinion though is that Russia did supply the system, and probably gave some training to the operators who may have already been familiar with the system from their early military service. The operators did do their job correctly, it is just they misidentified the target, the same mistake that has happened even to US forces. But the BUK could have all the same came from Ukraine seized bases, or maybe they had a BUK but no missiles, or some combination. Hell, they could have made one functioning one out of a few broke ones.
I do not believe in the rogue missile thing at all. The videos made by the rebels after the downing clearly show they meant to shoot it, and thought it was a military plane, and were surprised and dismayed that Kiev would allow commercial flights over the territory; they truly thought that Kiev banned them, thus any aircraft flying had to be military.
Of course Ukraine deployed air defense to the area, just in case rebel aircraft suddenly came into play though there have been none, But if they did not have air defense and all of a sudden rebels deployed aircraft, Ukrainian forces would have been sitting ducks. I also suspect Ukrainian operators have better training than the rebels in the use of such equipment.
But I still think the blame is primarily among two parties, Kiev and the commercial operators. Common sense says do not allow commercial aircraft over a war zone in which aircraft have been getting shot down. A mistake can easily happen and it has happened, even among forces with advanced training and technology, like the US.
.
The rebels nebylo and no airplanes. Everyone knows this perfectly.
They just do not have the Beech system. They were given to capture one tractor with missiles. But without a control center, this is nothing.
Beech is a few cars, radars, tractors and everything. It's a complex.
My opinion is that Kiev was carrying out an order for a big war with Russia, but they made a mistake with an airplane.
In 30 minutes, a plane of the President of Russia flew near the crash site. They had to attack him, and this is an application for war.
At the same time, howling was on the Internet, in social networks and in general wherever could "Putin bring in troops." A coincidence? I do not think so.
Moreover, the plane was changed the route, lowered the altitude and forced to fly directly over the conflict zone. This is open information, and it is.
Then the dispatcher and all the negotiations disappear immediately. But the commission of inquiry does not care. Fantastic!
Volokita stretches as much as possible, everything comes off the brakes. Search engines do not take wreckage, they do not go to this place.
What for?
In this there is no need to blame Russia, and at worst - the rebels.
The plane fell quite a bit before he got to Russia. Would it land?
Can you imagine howling in the world press? SNN and others.
The rebels nebylo and no airplanes. Everyone knows this perfectly.
They just do not have the Beech system. They were given to capture one tractor with missiles. But without a control center, this is nothing.
Beech is a few cars, radars, tractors and everything. It's a complex.
My opinion is that Kiev was carrying out an order for a big war with Russia, but they made a mistake with an airplane.
In 30 minutes, a plane of the President of Russia flew near the crash site. They had to attack him, and this is an application for war.
At the same time, howling was on the Internet, in social networks and in general wherever could "Putin bring in troops." A coincidence? I do not think so.
Moreover, the plane was changed the route, lowered the altitude and forced to fly directly over the conflict zone. This is open information, and it is.
Then the dispatcher and all the negotiations disappear immediately. But the commission of inquiry does not care. Fantastic!
Volokita stretches as much as possible, everything comes off the brakes. Search engines do not take wreckage, they do not go to this place.
What for?
In this there is no need to blame Russia, and at worst - the rebels.
The plane fell quite a bit before he got to Russia. Would it land?
Can you imagine howling in the world press? SNN and others.
I don't know it "perfectly." And I don't even understand what you are saying here. Can you say it in Russian pls, so I'd translate?
Next; "In 30 minutes, a plane of the President of Russia flew near the crash site. They had to attack him, and this is an application for war.
At the same time, howling was on the Internet, in social networks and in general wherever could "Putin bring in troops." A coincidence? I do not think so."
In Russian pls. I need to understand it too..))))
"Moreover, the plane was changed the route, lowered the altitude and forced to fly directly over the conflict zone. This is open information, and it is."
Can you please point at source of this information ( since it's an "open information?")
"Volokita stretches as much as possible, everything comes off the brakes. Search engines do not take wreckage, they do not go to this place."
What does it mean? (In Russian pls.) And this - because it's impossible to understand this in English. ( For me at least. )
"The plane fell quite a bit before he got to Russia. Would it land?"
The usual route of this flight was much farther to the south.
According to the flight tracking website flightaware, the Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur flight did not follow the usual route. On July 14 and 15 the route of the same flight ran along the southern shore of the Azov Sea. However, on July 16 the airplane was already traveling along the northern coast, and on the 17th it moved to the north, directly to the battle area.
Маршрут президентского самолёта РФ,пересекал маршрут сбитого боинга. (кажется в течении 30 минут от времени катастрофы)
Есть версия что хотели провоцровать войну.
тролли в интернете вопили про то что пора вводить войска в украину и начинать войну (наводить пордок).
Как то так.
A little Russian.
The route of the presidential plane of Russia, crossed the route of the downed Boeing. (It seems within 30 minutes from the time of the disaster)
There is a version that they wanted to provoke the war.
Trolls on the Internet screamed about the fact that it's time to enter troops into Ukraine and start a war (to spoil).
Something like this.
^
Thank you. However by now I'll have to forcibly remove myself from computer, place myself behind the wheel and drive to a neighboring town ; when I'll be back, I'll try to sort it all out.
^
Thank you. However by now I'll have to forcibly remove myself from computer, place myself behind the wheel and drive to a neighboring town ; when I'll be back, I'll try to sort it all out.
The usual route of this flight was much farther to the south.
According to the flight tracking website flightaware, the Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur flight did not follow the usual route. On July 14 and 15 the route of the same flight ran along the southern shore of the Azov Sea. However, on July 16 the airplane was already traveling along the northern coast, and on the 17th it moved to the north, directly to the battle area.
OK, I checked it all out more or less, and everything supports what Boxus is saying even more ( that it was a mistake on behalf of the rebels.)
Yes, the regular rout for commercial planes was going over Crimea initially, but the new Ukrainian gov. changed that rout so that "Russia wouldn't receive the money for the flights service, and so these money would go to Ukraine instead." ( I am quoting the article you referred me to.)
Сложилась парадоксальная ситуация, - говорит руководитель профсоюза авиадиспетчеров России Сергей Ковалев. – Украина и международные организации наложили вето на полеты над Крымом, и пустили самолеты над зоной боевых действий. Это сделано для того, чтобы не дать России получать доходы от обслуживания полетов, а отдать эти деньги Украине. Это большие доходы, в Юго-Восточную Азию из Европы идет очень большое количество рейсов, и все они начали летать в обход Крыма. Это было очень смело. По идее, Украина должна была ввести полный запрет на полеты над опасными территориями Юго-Востока. Но терять деньги, видимо, было очень жалко. Вот и получается, что ради денег украинской правительство рискнуло людьми совершенно других стран. И погубило их.
So basically in order to make money, Poroshenko and Co put the lives of the passengers of international flights at risk, and they did so deliberately. As much as they refused to name things by their proper names - they refused to acknowledge that what was going on in the Eastern part of Ukraine was indeed a war, not some stupid "anti-terrorist operation," (since the only terrorists that were operating there were Ukrainian National guard to tell the truth.) Why did they refuse to name things the appropriate way? Because if they'd have acknowledged that their country was at the stage of war, they wouldn't get loans from IMF.
So Boxus is absolutely correct when he is saying that the Ukrainian government is to blame for the incident, but then, again, it was clear to me that they were idiots to begin with, from the day one when they deprived Russian language of the official status as the first thing after they came to power.
So, moving on....
Last edited by erasure; 03-26-2017 at 09:20 PM..
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; when I'll be back, I'll try to sort it all out. 
