The future of Ukraine (crime, people, Russian, accepted)

[citoyen]

Originally Posted by Alec Solano

Because
"The power of Russia can only be undermined by her separation from Ukraine ... is necessary not only to tear, but also to oppose Russia to Ukraine."

Originally Posted by erasure

I see this quote ( supposedly Bismarck's) over and over on Russian sites.
Can someone PLEASE give me the source ( reputable at that ) where this quote is coming from.

Interesting.
So Russians who try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation. Use a supposedly quote of Bismark to present the ukrainian war as an agression from western world?

[Scrat335]

Originally Posted by citoyen

Interesting.
So Russians who try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation. Use a supposedly quote of Bismark to present the ukrainian war as an agression from western world?

Ukraine is not a Soviet creation. It's not a European creation. It's heavily influenced by both sides, Ukrainian people's can be credited with the condensation of the country's identity from the chaos of the early 20th century the Soviet Union provided the stability needed for the country to solidify itself.

Today the west is trying to force the country into the fold in order to further isolate Russia or so it is said. In fact the west is simply seeking to conquer and exploit for the sake of a small minority of varied corporate interests and powerful individuals.

What has been done is simply a cheap means to conquer a country. It is not being done for the good of Ukraine or its people. If all of this was meant to be otherwise then Ukraine would be the bridge between Russia and Europe it's supposed to be.

[Maksim_Frolov]

Originally Posted by citoyen

Interesting.
So Russians who try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation. Use a supposedly quote of Bismark to present the ukrainian war as an agression from western world?

Russians not try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation. And they not use a supposedly quote of Bismark. Of course it's internet fake.

[citoyen]

Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov

Russians not try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation.

Many did. I remember saw hundreds of times the same one or two maps who try to show that Ukraine is a fake state.
I'am pretty sure that I can find many post like that, even in this thread.

And they not use a supposedly quote of Bismark. Of course it's internet fake.

Well I don't know if russians use it or not. But it seems erasure was pretty sure of himself when he said he saw this quote everywhere in russian forums.

Originally Posted by erasure

I see this quote ( supposedly Bismarck's) over and over on Russian sites.

[Scrat335]

Odessa recently?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X10sABRVQs

[erasure]

Originally Posted by citoyen

Interesting.
So Russians who try to present the ukrainian nation as a soviet creation. Use a supposedly quote of Bismark to present the ukrainian war as an agression from western world?

Well, let's dissect your post a bit, that I would better understand it.
First of all, Russians don't try to present that "Ukrainian nation" was a "Soviet creation."
What they are saying, is that Ukraine in its today's borders is a Soviet creation.
But since Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire way before Soviet authorities came in place, this is how Russians see the creation of modern state of Ukraine overall, looking from historic perspective;



As you can see on this map, the red represents the actual borders of Ukraine by the 1654 ( the year of Pereyaslav Treaty ( I see already some nonsense there - apparently Ukrainians managed to "edit" recently the original article ) but never the less the fact remains - this is the year when Ukrainians asked for protection of the Russian tzar from Polish oppression. ( Since obviously they were Orthodox, while Poland (or rather Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at that time) was Catholic. So the MAJORITY of today's Ukrainian lands belonged to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and next yellow color that you see on the map are the lands that Russian tzars adjoined to Ukraine, when they defeated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which from what I remember was regarded as Polish "golden age." ( Keep this in mind, because THIS is a source of the Polish bitterness towards Russia, and never-ending "wet dream" of the likes of Brzezinski to get back at Russia, to weaken it and to break it apart. And Ukraine of course (that used to belong to Poland) is a big part of the *game* ( That's why Poland was "brokering" the deal of the whole "Ukraine joining the EU" thing - it was supposed to give Poland more clout in EU.)

But back to the map. So yellow color represents the lands that Russian tzars adjoined to Ukraine, "blue" territories were adjoined to Ukrainian Republic by Lenin in the beginning of the Soviet era, in spite of their initial resistance. Lenin explained that without these lands Ukraine would not have any industrial base whatsoever, (which was true) and wouldn't be viable as a Republic within the USSR, being too dependent on Russian Republic.
Then green territories were adjoined to Ukraine by Stalin of course, right before and after the WWII, and violet ( Crimea) was *gifted* to Ukraine by Khrushev a bit later, in 1954.
So yes, that's how Russians see the creation of today's Ukrainian state in its today's borders.
And since Ukraine has been part of Russia since 1654, obviously they see an attempt to break it away ( take it out of the sphere of the Russian influence in this case) as a Western aggression, an attempt of the West to use Ukraine against the Russian interests.
At that they quote ( supposedly) Bismarck, trying to prove that the "collective West" was harboring such plans already for long time, which of course has got nothing to do with Bismarck who as we all know was German politician and had very favorable opinion of Russia ( if not to say that he outright believed that the future German prosperity depended on peaceful coexistence with Russians, which would have prevented the French-Russian alliance, that he was weary of in the future.)
But I digress here, however going back to the subject - the plans to severe Ukraine from Russia were actually not cooked in Germany, but in Washington, and Brzesinsky the Pole ( ironically so) was behind it.
Then Poland was pushing the whole deal in the EU on behalf of American interests.



P.S. BTW erasure is "she," otherwise she wouldn't be posting Haute Couture videos in Fashion forum)))

[Alec Solano]

Originally Posted by Scrat335

Odessa recently?

They want to get a Russian passport? Why do they shout "Russia"?

[lchoro]

The government has publicly opposed the blockade, and warned of the economic and financial consequences of it -- replacement coal, possibly from Russia, could be expensive and tens of thousands of jobs could be lost.

But some officials in Kyiv have signaled support for such ring-fencing.

In December, National Security and Defense Council Secretary Oleksandr Turchynov urged a complete cutoff of the separatist-held areas of Donetsk and Luhansk from the rest of Ukraine. Turchynov, a wartime acting president in 2014, later clarified that no such steps should be taken without the approval of the current president, Petro Poroshenko.

Shortly afterward, veterans set up the first blockades, stopping trains crisscrossing the front line, erecting tent camps atop the tracks, and in some places welding wagon wheels to them.

Today, they sit defiantly inside pop-up encampments surrounded by razor wire. They say they won't move until their demands are met.

"When the head of the government forbids, by law, any trade transactions with the enemy, when all [Ukrainian] prisoners are released, and when the occupied territories are, by law, named as 'occupied' -- only then will the blockade be lifted," Semenchenko said.

Mystery Surrounds Blockade Forcing Kyiv's Hand

Some think this is/was the beginning of the two parts breaking apart.

The Donbass is breaking away

[Scrat335]

I think so to Ichoro. They're going in another direction. Thanks Erasure for that clarification of the historical situation of the Ukraine.

I really think that the solution to this issue is the separation of the Ukraine into eastern and western states or by some miracle reverse course and tell both Russia and America/EU how it's going to be and stop trying to be the ***** of either side.

[Alec Solano]

I think the Russian should starve to forget about empire. We need to knock it out of their empty bad brains.
They should know their place.