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If you're involved in enough proxy wars and revolutions, there's a large Rolodex of field commanders you can draw on at a moment's notice. The same people keep showing up in battles in Georgia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, ...
Close. They amplified the local support by fanning flames with their lies and fake news. I watched it myself, first in amazement that anyone would believe such lies but the "us against the west" mentality is strong in those folk so its easy to turn on their hate with some sweet sounding lies. The president fled the country and while I can agree it was an illegal coup, there was nothing else that could be done except have new elections. You can argue the roots of why they were anti western to begin with (for the same reason dictators create the image of the evils of liberal democracy).
You comparing the size of rallies means you are practicing the same sort of deception. Any pro Ukraine rally in Donetsk was attacked by violent thugs, while the Russian supported rallies were encouraged. This is actually what happened in Odessa in that fateful day in May except the thugs lost when the Ukrainians fought back and we all know how that turned out. Kharkov didn't have the same bloodbath, but the locals did snuff out the pro Russian "rebellion" in their own way (ironically with Kernes support).
I know exactly why Russia did this and so do most Ukrainians. The idea of actual democracy taking hold in Ukraine is a direct threat to the oligarchy running Russia. It clearly ruined the one running Ukraine...
Have you been to Mariupol since? They all remember Russian grad shelling the city 2.5 years ago. Who do you think they blame for that? Kiev?
Ukraine did have an actual democracy, Yanukovich was elected in a fair election that even had outside monitors. What happened to him was undemocratic however...and people are surprised those regions who voted for Yanukovich do not want to be part of Ukraine anymore? I would not want to be part of it either if the candidate I voted for that won got ousted by force by the opposing party that lost the election. To me that shows my vote does not count, and will never count.
Ukraine did have an actual democracy, Yanukovich was elected in a fair election that even had outside monitors. What happened to him was undemocratic however...and people are surprised those regions who voted for Yanukovich do not want to be part of Ukraine anymore? I would not want to be part of it either if the candidate I voted for that won got ousted by force by the opposing party that lost the election. To me that shows my vote does not count, and will never count.
You are missing a critical point. It was a democracy until Yanukovich passed the dictator laws which fueled the Hrushevskoho riots outside of the Dynamo stadium. There was nothing democratic about bussing in titushki from his home region to beat up kids camping in the ploshad. I can agree that what happened to him was undemocratic, but he also should recieve blame for this. He was also still in power right up until he fled after the Feb 20 massacre. The massacre which btw was portrayed on Russian TV as a false flag attack to overthrow the pro Russian government.
Sorry to interject reality here but the opposing party in the election against Yanukovich did not overthrow him, she was languishing in jail on trumped up charges. It was the youth of Ukraine who overthrew him and the reason this all started was because of that youth wanting to live in a normal European country and not a backwards kleptocracy like Russia. Again, very understandable why Putin would go ape over all these events, to the extent he is currently willing to ruin Russia's standing with the free world and its own economy.
That said, I agree Crimea is Russia. If only there were an easy way to work that out...
You are missing a critical point. It was a democracy until Yanukovich passed the dictator laws which fueled the Hrushevskoho riots outside of the Dynamo stadium. There was nothing democratic about bussing in titushki from his home region to beat up kids camping in the ploshad. I can agree that what happened to him was undemocratic, but he also should recieve blame for this. He was also still in power right up until he fled after the Feb 20 massacre. The massacre which btw was portrayed on Russian TV as a false flag attack to overthrow the pro Russian government.
There is a process to remove him, and they did not do that. Also, the vote was around the corner, but the opposition knew they would never obtain enough votes to oust him, so they resulted to violence.
I guarantee if masses of people were outside the Whitehouse wanting to oust the US president by force, US forces would open fire before they allow that to happen. I do not know why anyone gets upset when the government uses force to preserve itself. Hell, Bahrain sued force and even had Saudi forces come in, not a word from the US...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM
Sorry to interject reality here but the opposing party in the election against Yanukovich did not overthrow him, she was languishing in jail on trumped up charges. It was the youth of Ukraine who overthrew him and the reason this all started was because of that youth wanting to live in a normal European country and not a backwards kleptocracy like Russia. Again, very understandable why Putin would go ape over all these events, to the extent he is currently willing to ruin Russia's standing with the free world and its own economy.
That said, I agree Crimea is Russia. If only there were an easy way to work that out...
Opposing party meaning those who did not win. Yanukovich has support in the east and Crimea, and those are the places that wanted out. Everyone else voted against him. It was not the youth of Ukraine, it was a bunch of western fascists who do not appreciate democracy, and never had. They knew there candidate will never win, so the poor rednecks used force because Kiev happens to be located right in the area that is full of them.
These tools do not want normal European country, they want a visa to leave out of Ukraine for west Europe. They want it there way, and to hell with democracy. Look at those lovely folks, with their Nazi style ways and all, great group to come into power, and guess what, years later Ukraine is even worse.
The east has the ecnomic power and the population to greatly sway Ukrainian politics. Even after the Orange revolt, the leaders were so horrible that Yanukovish was voted in again, and by who? The east, the same group who now want nothing to do with Ukraine.
Yeah, Russia has plenty of enemies, it's not wonder the country isn't exactly flourishing.
It's easy to enlist people willing to support a violent changeover if the target is rich in natural resources.
We see Burisma Holdings of Ukraine has mostly foreigners on their board. Represented are individuals with ties to the US State Department, the CIA, a US terrorism NGO in ICG, and the IMF. All organizations had a hand in the regime change.
Opposing party meaning those who did not win. Yanukovich has support in the east and Crimea, and those are the places that wanted out. Everyone else voted against him. It was not the youth of Ukraine, it was a bunch of western fascists who do not appreciate democracy, and never had. They knew there candidate will never win, so the poor rednecks used force because Kiev happens to be located right in the area that is full of them.
These tools do not want normal European country, they want a visa to leave out of Ukraine for west Europe. They want it there way, and to hell with democracy. Look at those lovely folks, with their Nazi style ways and all, great group to come into power, and guess what, years later Ukraine is even worse.
The east has the ecnomic power and the population to greatly sway Ukrainian politics. Even after the Orange revolt, the leaders were so horrible that Yanukovish was voted in again, and by who? The east, the same group who now want nothing to do with Ukraine.
He had support in the east and Crimea. Things changed quickly however. As for the kids in the Maidan, there was nothing fascist/Nazi about them. Using this kind of language does not further your argument. They wanted Ukraine to be like European countries and they still do. If wanting rule of law and accountable government is fascist in your mind, that's your problem. They weren't western Ukrainians only either. I knew some personally from Zaporozhiye, last I checked that is not next to Lvov. They did have support of Ukrainian fascists like Pravy Sector and Svaboda but outside of Russian TV, fascists never had power in Ukraine. Exaggerating those 2 groups influence in Ukraine's government did nothing to further Russia's credibility.
The east doesn't have the economic power of Ukraine. This is not 1960 Soviet Union, coal and steel plants aren't the future of the economy anymore. Kiev has the economic power. Now the east doesn't have a future, totally ruined for a generation thanks to the Russian invasion. European investment is happening but not east of the Dnieper.
You are missing a critical point. It was a democracy until Yanukovich passed the dictator laws which fueled the Hrushevskoho riots outside of the Dynamo stadium. There was nothing democratic about bussing in titushki from his home region to beat up kids camping in the ploshad. I can agree that what happened to him was undemocratic, but he also should recieve blame for this. He was also still in power right up until he fled after the Feb 20 massacre. The massacre which btw was portrayed on Russian TV as a false flag attack to overthrow the pro Russian government.
Sorry to interject reality here but the opposing party in the election against Yanukovich did not overthrow him, she was languishing in jail on trumped up charges. It was the youth of Ukraine who overthrew him and the reason this all started was because of that youth wanting to live in a normal European country and not a backwards kleptocracy like Russia. Again, very understandable why Putin would go ape over all these events, to the extent he is currently willing to ruin Russia's standing with the free world and its own economy.
That said, I agree Crimea is Russia. If only there were an easy way to work that out...
You have a lot of things just flat out wrong. Youth overthrowing the president? That's fantasy.
This is something I remember about the Ukraine. The trash. The place we stayed at was an apartment complex and the dumpsters were buried in trash. It hadn't been picked up in months.
You are missing a critical point. It was a democracy until Yanukovich passed the dictator laws which fueled the Hrushevskoho riots outside of the Dynamo stadium. There was nothing democratic about bussing in titushki from his home region to beat up kids camping in the ploshad. I can agree that what happened to him was undemocratic, but he also should recieve blame for this. He was also still in power right up until he fled after the Feb 20 massacre. The massacre which btw was portrayed on Russian TV as a false flag attack to overthrow the pro Russian government.
Sorry to interject reality here but the opposing party in the election against Yanukovich did not overthrow him, she was languishing in jail on trumped up charges. It was the youth of Ukraine who overthrew him and the reason this all started was because of that youth wanting to live in a normal European country and not a backwards kleptocracy like Russia. Again, very understandable why Putin would go ape over all these events, to the extent he is currently willing to ruin Russia's standing with the free world and its own economy.
That said, I agree Crimea is Russia. If only there were an easy way to work that out...
All right then - now the "new democratic government" in Kiev is bussing the nationalists from the Western parts of Ukraine to the East., that beat up everyone who dares to argue with the current regime.
How this works out for "democracy?"
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