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The route of the presidential plane of Russia, crossed the route of the downed Boeing. (It seems within 30 minutes from the time of the disaster)
There is a version that they wanted to provoke the war.
Trolls on the Internet screamed about the fact that it's time to enter troops into Ukraine and start a war (to spoil).
Something like this.
Who "wanted to provoke the war?" Ukrainians? That's the last thing they needed.
All this "war provocation" is made up by Putin's propaganda machine ( Surkov et al,) and serves the interests of the Central Bank, Nabiullina, Greff and the rest. They were the ones that talked Putin out of takeover of the South-East, citing "economic consequences" I'm sure. And I believe Girkin ( aka Strelkov) when he said that initially, (if Putin wouldn't have wiggled out of it,) it was very easy to take over those areas without any particular military actions, since there were plenty of Ukrainians/Russians from higher command that were willing to swear the allegiance to Russia. All these fairy-tales about the "West trying to provoke the war and get Russia involved into it" came much later, when the initial takeover of the South-East similar to Crimea became already impossible.
So even if Putin was flying anywhere close to the area, no one from Ukrainian side would have been either ready or adequately prepared to shoot his plane ( if indeed it even was in that area around that time.)
It is what it is. Putin betrayed the South-East, following the advise of his "financial team," hoping that he'll try to talk the West into acceptance of the whole situation with Crimea later.
But betrayals in the name of financial gains usually don't end up well.
Who "wanted to provoke the war?" Ukrainians? That's the last thing they needed.
All this "war provocation" is made up by Putin's propaganda machine ( Surkov et al,) and serves the interests of the Central Bank, Nabiullina, Greff and the rest. They were the ones that talked Putin out of takeover of the South-East, citing "economic consequences" I'm sure. And I believe Girkin ( aka Strelkov) when he said that initially, (if Putin wouldn't have wiggled out of it,) it was very easy to take over those areas without any particular military actions, since there were plenty of Ukrainians/Russians from higher command that were willing to swear the allegiance to Russia. All these fairy-tales about the "West trying to provoke the war and get Russia involved into it" came much later, when the initial takeover of the South-East similar to Crimea became already impossible.
So even if Putin was flying anywhere close to the area, no one from Ukrainian side would have been either ready or adequately prepared to shoot his plane ( if indeed it even was in that area around that time.)
It is what it is. Putin betrayed the South-East, following the advise of his "financial team," hoping that he'll try to talk the West into acceptance of the whole situation with Crimea later.
But betrayals in the name of financial gains usually don't end up well.
Of course, the Ukrainians do not need a war. But not to the Ukrainian modern authorities.
Or are you blind and deaf?
So much talk about the aggression of Russia and without a single sane evidence.
America is very fond of pulling chestnuts out of the fire with the help of other people's hands. And there are many Ukrainians, they are not so valuable.
****, zholbany Google translator. I delete it **** ..
Of course, the Ukrainians do not need a war. But not to the Ukrainian modern authorities.
Or are you blind and deaf?
I am neither blind nor deaf, and I understand that Ukrainian "democratic government" would love to see American military involved in a conflict, but how do you imagine the whole picture being put in a context of the "Russian plane carrying president being shot by Ukrainian forces over Donetsk"?
You think that then Russian army would have imminently attack Ukraine in retaliation, and THEN miraculously somehow American troops would have been brought in? Hurray, the goal of American military involvement is finally reached! Is this what you think it is? Sorry, but as dumb as Poroshenko and Co are, they are not THAT dumb to shoot Putin's plane for this particular reason.
So back to the rebels we go...
Quote:
So much talk about the aggression of Russia and without a single sane evidence.
The takeover of Crimea + Russian support for the rebels - that's what considered as "Russian aggression."
Quote:
America is very fond of pulling chestnuts out of the fire with the help of other people's hands. And there are many Ukrainians, they are not so valuable.
I can say the same now - that "there are many Russians ( in the Eastern part of Ukraine) and THEIR lives are not so valuable." That's why Putin is following American blueprint basically. The only difference is - for Americans the Ukrainians are "unrelated" people, second sort kinda, and expendable. But for Putin those Russians are his own kin, but he still pretends that they are different from those living in Crimea. Why? Only because Crimea is strategically important; Donbass - not so much.
Russia has fomented fake rebellions in neighboring countries for hundreds of years as a means of furthering their interests. Guess where they learned it from? The same people that enslaved them with the same techniques hundreds of years before that.
Russia has fomented fake rebellions in neighboring countries for hundreds of years as a means of furthering their interests. Guess where they learned it from? The same people that enslaved them with the same techniques hundreds of years before that.
The "rebellion" in Donetsk was very much manufactured by Moscow. It is something they have a pattern of doing, and its not hard to find examples of it. They know it so well that's why they accuse the USA of doing it too every time there is a rebellion against a Russian aligned autocrat.
In Ukraine it worked because there is some local support of these ideas, but what Russia did was spur it by a full on blitz of nonstop lies and provocations from their state media. The only people in Ukraine who supported the rebels in Donetsk were convinced that the Maidan was something very different that what it actually was. This was pushed out across Russian speaking Ukraine (aka Novorossiya), I witnessed it first hand. The local support only reached critical mass in the Donbas despite the attempt to bring it from Kharkov to Odessa.
The idea that Ukraine and Russia can be united in cause died the day Putin attacked Ukraine's army from Russia in August of 2014. The soldiers who were attacked by Russian shelling all went home to their cities across Ukraine and told their stories to their families and friends, including my own not far from the front lines. I get why he had to do it, because his rebellion was about to be crushed.
The "rebellion" in Donetsk was very much manufactured by Moscow. It is something they have a pattern of doing, and its not hard to find examples of it. They know it so well that's why they accuse the USA of doing it too every time there is a rebellion against a Russian aligned autocrat.
In Ukraine it worked because there is some local support of these ideas, but what Russia did was spur it by a full on blitz of nonstop lies and provocations from their state media. The only people in Ukraine who supported the rebels in Donetsk were convinced that the Maidan was something very different that what it actually was. This was pushed out across Russian speaking Ukraine (aka Novorossiya), I witnessed it first hand. The local support only reached critical mass in the Donbas despite the attempt to bring it from Kharkov to Odessa.
The idea that Ukraine and Russia can be united in cause died the day Putin attacked Ukraine's army from Russia in August of 2014. The soldiers who were attacked by Russian shelling all went home to their cities across Ukraine and told their stories to their families and friends, including my own not far from the front lines. I get why he had to do it, because his rebellion was about to be crushed.
So there you go. Moscow can't really "manufacture" anything, unless the locals are up in arms against the "new democratic changes" coming from Kiev.
There was a video on Western channels with the pro-Ukrainian rally in Donetsk in the beginning of it all,- people draped in blue-yellow Ukrainian banners and all, and it was obvious to me that their number was amazingly small ( like 700-800 people) for the city of Donetsk size, comparably to the sea of people that came to protest the illegal change of power in Kiev. (Not to mention about 2 million refugees that poured to Russia from the Eastern part of the country.)
I saw the actions of Ukrainian army in Mariupol that acted like occupying force, shooting people, I saw people trying to stop Ukrainian tanks with their bare hands in Eastern towns and villages - so no one can convince me any longer that "rebellion in Donetsk was manufactured by Moscow."
Moscow indeed used the opportunity to support the discontent in the area, but to say that the "rebellion was manufactured in Moscow" is simply a wishful thinking.
If you're involved in enough proxy wars and revolutions, there's a large Rolodex of field commanders you can draw on at a moment's notice. The same people keep showing up in battles in Georgia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, ...
It's no wonder The Seven Pillars of Wisdom has been required reading for the US military in the Middle East. It's an insurgency manual for how to stage armed uprisings.
So there you go. Moscow can't really "manufacture" anything, unless the locals are up in arms against the "new democratic changes" coming from Kiev.
There was a video on Western channels with the pro-Ukrainian rally in Donetsk in the beginning of it all,- people draped in blue-yellow Ukrainian banners and all, and it was obvious to me that their number was amazingly small ( like 700-800 people) for the city of Donetsk size, comparably to the sea of people that came to protest the illegal change of power in Kiev. (Not to mention about 2 million refugees that poured to Russia from the Eastern part of the country.)
I saw the actions of Ukrainian army in Mariupol that acted like occupying force, shooting people, I saw people trying to stop Ukrainian tanks with their bare hands in Eastern towns and villages - so no one can convince me any longer that "rebellion in Donetsk was manufactured by Moscow."
Moscow indeed used the opportunity to support the discontent in the area, but to say that the "rebellion was manufactured in Moscow" is simply a wishful thinking.
Close. They amplified the local support by fanning flames with their lies and fake news. I watched it myself, first in amazement that anyone would believe such lies but the "us against the west" mentality is strong in those folk so its easy to turn on their hate with some sweet sounding lies. The president fled the country and while I can agree it was an illegal coup, there was nothing else that could be done except have new elections. You can argue the roots of why they were anti western to begin with (for the same reason dictators create the image of the evils of liberal democracy).
You comparing the size of rallies means you are practicing the same sort of deception. Any pro Ukraine rally in Donetsk was attacked by violent thugs, while the Russian supported rallies were encouraged. This is actually what happened in Odessa in that fateful day in May except the thugs lost when the Ukrainians fought back and we all know how that turned out. Kharkov didn't have the same bloodbath, but the locals did snuff out the pro Russian "rebellion" in their own way (ironically with Kernes support).
I know exactly why Russia did this and so do most Ukrainians. The idea of actual democracy taking hold in Ukraine is a direct threat to the oligarchy running Russia. It clearly ruined the one running Ukraine...
Have you been to Mariupol since? They all remember Russian grad shelling the city 2.5 years ago. Who do you think they blame for that? Kiev?
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