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Hitler used these same arguments in the 30's for breaking up neighboring countries and annexing the pro German or German speaking areas. Its not just a "western" point of view that this doesn't lead to good things.
The variation on that today is staging Muslim revolts in the MENA and using the pretext of fighting terrorism for invading those countries. False flag attacks in the target countries leading up to WII were used to incite German public opinion in favor of an invasion.
In Ukraine, the staged revolts came against the pro-Russian government. The neo-Nazi paramilitary units were the advance military force for an attempt to secure the east. The strongarm tactics backfired.
The variation on that today is staging Muslim revolts in the MENA and using the pretext of fighting terrorism for invading those countries. False flag attacks in the target countries leading up to WII were used to incite German public opinion in favor of an invasion.
In Ukraine, the staged revolts came against the pro-Russian government. The neo-Nazi paramilitary units were the advance military force for an attempt to secure the east. The strongarm tactics backfired.
None of what you said actually makes sense. What is a staged revolt? A false flag attack like Hitler used was German soldiers pretending to be Polish attacking German troops (under a false flag). Even if what you were describing was true, it still isn't a false flag attack. Those weren't NATO spies pretending to be Ukrainians in Kiev. I remember this was poorly misunderstood by the Russian side. They would kidnap people from the Maidan and ask them who is telling them to protest and could not believe it when they said they were there by their own choice.
What Putin used was a false flag attack, using Russian soldiers to take over Crimean ports pretending they were local Ukrainians without insignia.
Funny how there's this pattern of Russians accusing the west of what Russians do.
We don't need to stage anything because revolts are the result of democratic pressures not having an outlet. Every arab spring and the maidan were sourced in the people not being able to express their will. All they demanded was elections.
Hitler used these same arguments in the 30's for breaking up neighboring countries and annexing the pro German or German speaking areas. Its not just a "western" point of view that this doesn't lead to good things.
But we must also recognize that the results of the First World War were very tragic for the Germans. Hitler did not come from scratch.
+ I understand your point. I agree that there is danger. As a result, Russia can repeat the path of Germany in the 30s (and in the 40s).
Well hell yes we do. You should do that instead of living in a fantasy reality.
If you want to play the "territory" card, hand over Karelia to us and Königsberg to Germany and then we go further from that.
Ariete, I believe that an answers to many questions are in history. And I believe that modern Russia (like Ukraine, like Belarus) is a fragment of a single ancient Rus state. And Russia was not formed in the 15th or 16th centuries, but in the time of the Varangians' parishes in Novgorod.
The territory of Königsberg and Karelia is more recent. This has nothing to do with Ukraine.
Yanukovych won in such elections. Because Crimea, East and some other regions voted for him.
I'm well aware as many of my own family voted for Yanukovych. He won elections years before promising a certain platform. When he reversed his position (turning down Europe's AA and going with Putin's plan) this created a problem with the population including those who voted for him. The way normal European countries would handle this problem would be to call fresh elections. This is what people wanted. Instead he ordered police to beat up protesters and made his party pass laws to outlaw protests. This created an even bigger problem for Putin that Ukrainians would protest like this to not join his club of nations. Big enough he would create a war.
That is ANTI democratic. I don't expect a Russian to understand democracy, Its rare to meet one who does. The education system there hasn't caught up yet.
People in the US hate Trump, but so far none of the democrats/liberals have tried to storm the white house and have him killed. If Yanukovych hadn't fled the country, I'm pretty sure that angry mob of protesters would have burned him at the stake.
I'm well aware as many of my own family voted for Yanukovych. He won elections years before promising a certain platform. When he reversed his position (turning down Europe's AA and going with Putin's plan) this created a problem with the population including those who voted for him. The way normal European countries would handle this problem would be to call fresh elections. This is what people wanted. Instead he ordered police to beat up protesters and made his party pass laws to outlaw protests. This created an even bigger problem for Putin that Ukrainians would protest like this to not join his club of nations. Big enough he would create a war.
That is ANTI democratic. I don't expect a Russian to understand democracy, Its rare to meet one who does. The education system there hasn't caught up yet.
Uhmm, but before we'll get into the usual narrative how "Russia doesn't understand democracy," let's look into reasons why Yanukovich rejected the EU proposal, and went with Russian proposal instead, shall we?
So here it goes, this is what Mr. Yanukovich ( legally and democratically voted in president) was initially all about;
KIEV (Reuters) - On September 4, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich called a meeting of his political party for the first time in three years, summoning members to an old Soviet-era cinema called Zoryany in Kiev.
For three hours Yanukovich cajoled and bullied anyone who pushed for Ukraine to have closer ties to Russia. A handful of deputies from his Party of Regions complained that their businesses in Ukraine’s Russian-speaking east would suffer if Yanukovich didn’t agree to closer ties with Russia. That set him off.
So what happened to this very Mr. Yanukovich down the road, that he changed his opinion so drastically?
I'll tell you the reason for that -
"..But then there are the financial incentives. In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports. The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin's billions instead."
"Yanukovych said the EU for the past three years had demanded Ukraine sign a loan agreement with the International Monetary Fund in exchange for EU technical assistance worth 610 million euros. Yanukovych said the IMF told Ukraine it would have to raise taxes for the population and freeze salaries and pensions.
Yanukovych said, "We don't have to be humiliated like this. We are a serious, European country." He added, "As soon as we agree on normal conditions, then we will talk about signing."
So if Yanukovitch would have signed the EU agreement, and froze salaries and pensions as demanded - what do you think would follow after that, but another revolt of his population. Ukrainians do not understand that for Ukraine the "EU association" is not Polish version, when Germany would invest in your economy directly, create jobs and so on. What was prepared for Ukraine was Bulgarian version, and that's a whole different story. (For Russians this "version" sounds all too familiar by the way too.) So Yanukovitch would have been unseated from power anyway, in the same manner as pro-Western Ukrainian president Yushenko was voted out of the office before him.
So it's one of those situations "damn if you do and damn if you don't."
And now ladies and gentlemen let's go back to regularly scheduled program on "Russians and their non understanding of democracy.."
I'm well aware as many of my own family voted for Yanukovych. He won elections years before promising a certain platform. When he reversed his position (turning down Europe's AA and going with Putin's plan) this created a problem with the population including those who voted for him. The way normal European countries would handle this problem would be to call fresh elections. This is what people wanted. Instead he ordered police to beat up protesters and made his party pass laws to outlaw protests. This created an even bigger problem for Putin that Ukrainians would protest like this to not join his club of nations. Big enough he would create a war.
That is ANTI democratic. I don't expect a Russian to understand democracy, Its rare to meet one who does. The education system there hasn't caught up yet.
You are wrong. The ministers of France, Germany and Russia agreed with Yanukovych to hold early elections. He agreed to a new early election. It was a few days before the coup.
People in the US hate Trump, but so far none of the democrats/liberals have tried to storm the white house and have him killed. If Yanukovych hadn't fled the country, I'm pretty sure that angry mob of protesters would have burned him at the stake.
If Trump unleashed unmarked thugs on protesters to kidnap and kill them, yes it would happen here too.
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