Greensboro downtown Development. (Charlotte, High Point, Star: relocating to, furniture, seafood)
Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High PointThe Triad Area
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The Steven Tanger Center is picking up some nice shows. Patti Labelle will be performing live in concert. The Price is Right Live is also coming to the Tanger Center. I believe Mark Wahlberg hosts it and people in the audience are picked at random like the tv show.
In order for the arena to work downtown it needs to have a primary tenant which could be the Greensboro Swarm or a new hockey team. That would be in addition to concerts and other events. My bet is the Greensboro Swarm. The current Fieldhouse is one of the smallest in the NBA G League and the Fieldhouse is always packed. The franchise could definitely use more seats for a larger arena around 8,000 seats.
But it's great to see city leaders taking this seriously.
The problem with higher arena capacity is that as the capacity gets higher, the financial cost gets exponentially higher. That's why I advocate something closer to 6000 seats. At that size, Greensboro should still be able to attract an SPHL team (which is a far more stable league than the FHL where the Thunderbirds play). Even an ECHL team wouldn't be out of the question, though admittedly more likely with an 8000 seat arena (I'm just not sure the difference between an SPHL team and an ECHL team would matter all that much).
As for the Swarm, they need a bigger facility yesterday.
The problem with higher arena capacity is that as the capacity gets higher, the financial cost gets exponentially higher. That's why I advocate something closer to 6000 seats. At that size, Greensboro should still be able to attract an SPHL team (which is a far more stable league than the FHL where the Thunderbirds play). Even an ECHL team wouldn't be out of the question, though admittedly more likely with an 8000 seat arena (I'm just not sure the difference between an SPHL team and an ECHL team would matter all that much).
As for the Swarm, they need a bigger facility yesterday.
I Wish Greensboro could secure an AHL team again which is equivalent to AAA minor league baseball. Basically one step below the NHL. Greensboro had the AHL Carolina Monarchs. The city lost hockey when it chose to be the temporary home of the Carolina Hurricanes while the arena was being built in Raleigh. But an AHL team in Greensboro could become a Hurricanes affiliate. It was pretty cool. Greensboro was briefly home to a major league sports team. I had an NHL hockey game on the Sony Playstation back then and it had Greensboro Coliseum written on the home ice.
As for the Swarm, I'm thinking this is why downtown leaders are pushing for an arena although they still my try to land a hockey team. The Fieldhouse is too small for the attendance at the Swarm games and it really can't be expanded. The franchise is financially stable in Greensboro with the support of the NBA and growing fan base and isn't going anywhere so they need a more suitable permanent home. 8,000 seats is doable but again regardless of size, this facility is going to have to be built primarily with private dollars like the ballpark, Tanger Center and the two downtown city parks. Those projects would have never happened if there were a referendum to use city tax dollars. There was a referendum on the first attempt to build Center-City Park and it failed. Even a referendum to upgrade War Memorial Auditorium failed two or three times which is why leaders built the Tanger Center downtown with private donations, hotel/motel tax and user fees. The downtown ballpark failed when the team asked the city for tax dollars to build it so a local non profit foundation built it privately by using the the Memphis model. Even the Koury Convention Center at I-40 had to be built privately when a referendum to build a downtown convention center failed in the 1980s. Not too many cities can build these kind of facilities privately. There are plenty of deep pockets and old money in Greensboro. Its an amazing feat to build a nearly $100 million state-of-the-art performing arts center with private dollars which is something Durham wasn't able to do.
Greensboro citizens support these kind of facilities. They just don't like using taxpayer money. I remember there was a referendum to build downtown aquatic center which failed so city leaders basically tricked the taxpayers by putting it in a parks and rec bond which always gets passed. They just decided to build at the coliseum instead. The same strategy politicians in Washington use to get things they want.
I Wish Greensboro could secure an AHL team again which is equivalent to AAA minor league baseball. Basically one step below the NHL. Greensboro had the AHL Carolina Monarchs. The city lost hockey when it chose to be the temporary home of the Carolina Hurricanes while the arena was being built in Raleigh. But an AHL team in Greensboro could become a Hurricanes affiliate. It was pretty cool. Greensboro was briefly home to a major league sports team. I had an NHL hockey game on the Sony Playstation back then and it had Greensboro Coliseum written on the home ice.
As for the Swarm, I'm thinking this is why downtown leaders are pushing for an arena although they still my try to land a hockey team. The Fieldhouse is too small for the attendance at the Swarm games and it really can't be expanded. The franchise is financially stable in Greensboro with the support of the NBA and growing fan base and isn't going anywhere so they need a more suitable permanent home. 8,000 seats is doable but again regardless of size, this facility is going to have to be built primarily with private dollars like the ballpark, Tanger Center and the two downtown city parks. Those projects would have never happened if there were a referendum to use city tax dollars. There was a referendum on the first attempt to build Center-City Park and it failed. Even a referendum to upgrade War Memorial Auditorium failed two or three times which is why leaders built the Tanger Center downtown with private donations, hotel/motel tax and user fees. The downtown ballpark failed when the team asked the city for tax dollars to build it so a local non profit foundation built it privately by using the the Memphis model. Even the Koury Convention Center at I-40 had to be built privately when a referendum to build a downtown convention center failed in the 1980s. Not too many cities can build these kind of facilities privately. There are plenty of deep pockets and old money in Greensboro. Its an amazing feat to build a nearly $100 million state-of-the-art performing arts center with private dollars which is something Durham wasn't able to do.
Greensboro citizens support these kind of facilities. They just don't like using taxpayer money. I remember there was a referendum to build downtown aquatic center which failed so city leaders basically tricked the taxpayers by putting it in a parks and rec bond which always gets passed. They just decided to build at the coliseum instead. The same strategy politicians in Washington use to get things they want.
You continue to sell this notion that GPAC is totally privately funded, and blah blah blah, so I checked Wiki for some facts:
DPAC
The city borrowed $33.7 million for the center's construction through certificates of participation ("COPs"), instruments commonly used to finance municipal facilities. Debt service payments on COPs are subject annual appropriation by the city, and as such are considered an annual operating expense rather than a long-term capital obligation. Accordingly, a voter referendum was not required for the issuance of the COPs. Additional sources of funds for the project include facility naming rights, a Duke University contribution, an operator loan, and several other sources. The Duke University contribution equaled $7.5 million. The theater hosts, on favorable rental terms, the seven-week American Dance Festival summer series, which had previously been presented in the 1,232-seat Page Auditorium at Duke University. The cost to the city for the $33.7 million in bonds will be almost $70 million over 28 years.
GPAC
On December 8, 2015, the city council approved a plan to raise $11 million more for the center, after it became clear the original budget was already exceeded by more than $10 million. The Chamber of Commerce building would be replaced by VIP parking expected to provide $1.6 million. Private donors would be asked for $3.5 million more. Ticket service fees would be $1 more, and $1 less of the existing $3 service fee would go to arts groups, with each raising a projected $3.75 million over 25 years. Also, $4.4 million of the costs would be eliminated if possible. The city would also have to authorize $9,617,858 in bonds.
The project's total cost was $84.7 million, plus $5 million in financing costs. The Tanger Center would be collateral for $48 million in limited obligation bonds.
The bottom line is that both cities had to rely on a combination of financing mechanisms to make the facilities become a reality, and both cities had to issue bonds and/or use other forms of debt as part of these efforts. So your argument about GPAC being solely privately funded is bogus.
Last edited by uncchgrad; 11-19-2019 at 07:58 PM..
I Wish Greensboro could secure an AHL team again which is equivalent to AAA minor league baseball. Basically one step below the NHL. Greensboro had the AHL Carolina Monarchs. The city lost hockey when it chose to be the temporary home of the Carolina Hurricanes while the arena was being built in Raleigh. But an AHL team in Greensboro could become a Hurricanes affiliate. It was pretty cool. Greensboro was briefly home to a major league sports team. I had an NHL hockey game on the Sony Playstation back then and it had Greensboro Coliseum written on the home ice.
There is absolutely zero chance of Greensboro attracting an AHL team again. For one, there's an AHL team in Charlotte and I don't think they'd be clamoring to leave Charlotte for Greensboro. Second and possibly even more importantly, there has been a big movement over the last few years to move a lot of AHL teams out west to better reflect the number of NHL teams that play out west. There's already a new team in California set to join the AHL in 2021 once the 10,000 seat arena is ready. For what it's worth, that arena will cost $250 million.
With a good enough facility though, Greensboro could contend for an ECHL team. Ideally, Greensboro would land the farm team for the Carolina Hurricanes but I'm not sure how realistic it would be to lure them from Greenville as the Swamp Rabbits have historically drawn about middle of the road attendance lure in a great facility very close to the AHL franchise. Interestingly, the Manchester Monarchs are one of the poorer drawing ECHL team which would make a seamless transition back to Greensboro Monarchs (I'm not really proclaiming this as realistic, just a musing). More realistic would be perhaps Wheeling (Pittsburgh Penguins) or even Norfolk (they're the only ECHL franchise without an NHL team affiliation, they draw poorly, and they play in an aging arena). Side Note: Noting Greenville's poor attendance this year, maybe it is possible to draw the Canes ECHL team since we would be talking another 4-5 years down the road minimum.
To have a formidable shot at landing an ECHL team will likely require an expensive arena. A 6,000 seat generic "arena" probably wouldn't cut if for the ECHL (though should be OK for the SPHL). The ECHL would likely require an arena in the 7,500+ seat range that would likely cost about double the arena that would land an SPHL franchise when you consider the facilities that would be required. Frankly, I think a $50ish million arena that seats 6,000 or so and is relatively bare bones would be just fine. We would almost certainly be able to have an SPHL team lined up and ready to go as soon as construction is done. A larger arena with better facilities and amenities would still lure an SPHL team, but could lure an ECHL team... but again it also might not successfully lure an ECHL team. And even if it does lure an ECHL team, is the ECHL worth the substantially extra cost?
More railroad grade separations are always a good thing. The amount of times you hear about cars or pedestrians getting hit by trains locally is kinda absurd, and it will help improve overall train speed/reliability between Charlotte and Raleigh.
On the concept of an arena downtown, I just don't see that happening. It's only one of several preliminary proposals about where downtown could go in the next 10 years and one that I don't see getting too much support since it would require a huge amount of land for the arena and probably just as much for parking. I personally think that the next ten years should be focused on fast tracking streetscape improvements downtown and encouraging more infill along selected corridors like Eugene/Davie/Church St.
I would love to see a food hall downtown. They're gaining popularity all over and I think if done right, it would be a nice addition. HP is developing one currently near its ballpark.
I would love to see a food hall downtown. They're gaining popularity all over and I think if done right, it would be a nice addition. HP is developing one currently near its ballpark.
I wouldn't be surprised if one is planned for the depot
More railroad grade separations are always a good thing. The amount of times you hear about cars or pedestrians getting hit by trains locally is kinda absurd, and it will help improve overall train speed/reliability between Charlotte and Raleigh.
On the concept of an arena downtown, I just don't see that happening. It's only one of several preliminary proposals about where downtown could go in the next 10 years and one that I don't see getting too much support since it would require a huge amount of land for the arena and probably just as much for parking. I personally think that the next ten years should be focused on fast tracking streetscape improvements downtown and encouraging more infill along selected corridors like Eugene/Davie/Church St.
Space concerns are another reason why a 6,000 seat arena is potentially feasible while an 8k+ seat arena is less feasible. That said, arenas don't take up anywhere near the footprint of even a baseball stadium.
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