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Grover Cleveland probably could have solved the "Hawaiʻi problem" in 1893 with a simple "executive order," his foreign policy was one of "non-intervention." Moreover, he had more pressing issues at the time to be concerned about, such as his cancer surgery and a major economic crisis.
Can we get an Executive Order today? It is such a waste of time and effort when things should be a higher priority - like education.
Can we get an Executive Order today? It is such a waste of time and effort when things should be a higher priority - like education.
It dawned on me in one of my posts to HbH about the kingdom of Hawaii charging usurious rates to lease bases, that perhaps that is part of their motivation.
In any case, I agree that it is a wholesale squandering of good human effort to pursue this issue, except as a diversion from the work-a-day world on CDF or other venues.
It will not, and should not, go beyond mere lip service.
Can we get an Executive Order today? It is such a waste of time and effort when things should be a higher priority - like education.
Or getting our next walmart, which internet provider i should choice and keeping the population down in Hawai'i to those in six figures so property values don't go down. So much more important things then injustice to a few or etc.
I just ask ppl like OpenD. How much do you need to have reasonable doubt that everything regarding Hawai'i wasn't done legally and ethically?
I have no doubt whatsoever that much, and probably most of what happened was unethical and illegal. I've never said otherwise. And I have a great deal of empathy for people of native Hawaiian heritage who feel a deep sense of loss about what happened to their ancestors. But that doesn't mean that restoring Hawai'i's status as a sovereign nation is the appropriate way to mitigate those transgressions which occurred in the now distant past. Even as kids we learned that "two wrongs don't make a right," right? And restoring the Hawaiian Monarchy, frankly, would be a boneheaded move that would really only benefit a handful of people, the ones who are pushing hardest for it. So make that saying "three wrongs don't make a right."
Putting aside the history books for a moment, which all interpret events from a variety of perspectives and biases, we need only consult the Hawaiian Constitution of 1840 to see how fundamentally unfair their system was from today's viewpoint, dividing their population into three classes with different rights and privileges... Royalty, Chiefs, and Commoners... which were determined by birth. You couldn't work hard and become the King someday unless you were a Royal by birth. And you couldn't sit in the upper house of legislature, the House of Nobles (much like our Senate), and pass laws, unless you were a born Chief, or the King had raised you up. And as a Commoner you could run for election to the lower house, but not everyone had the right to vote. And truth be told, there was actually a fourth class in practice, the outcasts, who were thrown out of society for crazy or bad behavior and had no rights or privileges or property. They just had to fend for themselves, in the rough. So yes, even in 1840 there were homeless people in Hawai'i !
I feel this detail from the sandlewood trade that mushroomed in the 1820s is quite telling... the King commanded that sandlewood from the native forests be submitted by the commoners as a tax. This was collected on behalf of the King by the Chiefs, who received a cut, and the valuable wood was sold for gold to Asian traders. The Commoners got nothing, the King got gold, and the Chiefs got a percentage. Matter of fact, if a commoner refused to submit the tax, the punishment was to burn down his house. And when kanaka maoli Commoners got off-island employment offers from whalers and trading companies and plantations, they had to get permission from the King, and the company had to post a large "security deposit" in gold with the King to ensure the native's return at the end of his agreement. And each Commoner owed three days labor a month to the king, for which there was no recompense. It's good to be the King!
In short, although the 1840 Constitution, enacted during King Kamehameha III's reign, calls out that the King owns everything, it also says it is not private property, but instead property held in common for the Chiefs and Commoners. So why oh why did only the King and the Chiefs get rich from selling off property to foreigners during the reigns of Kam II and Kam III? And didn't that "corruption" sew the seeds for the eventual overthrow of the country? And I could go on.
My central point comes back to that Winston Churchill quote I invited you to look up earlier...
“Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.”
By whatever crooked path it took, Hawai'i eventually came to a democratic form of government. To regress to a lower and inferior form of government now, by restoring an obsolete monarchy, makes no sense at all to anyone except the handful of insiders who would personally profit by the change.
And to have only about 20% of the current population of Hawai'i be considered eligible to vote on the future of 1.4 million people? That would be an injustice so large it dwarfs the injustice it purports to correct.
It dawned on me in one of my posts to HbH about the kingdom of Hawaii charging usurious rates to lease bases, that perhaps that is part of their motivation.
In any case, I agree that it is a wholesale squandering of good human effort to pursue this issue, except as a diversion from the work-a-day world on CDF or other venues.
It will not, and should not, go beyond mere lip service.
I mean yeah, how can capitalistic america be wrong, we are gods country. We are the most richest and powerful because we are the most rightous and virtuous! Gee sorry to question our motives, let me go back to sleep ok?
Exactly. This is the first productive idea I've heard in years. Before anyone takes one more step, before even one more taxpayer dollar is spent on this quixotic quest, these folks should be sequestered until they can agree on a single set of principles, and come up with a coherent list of proposals and requests they all agree on and will stand behind.
Absent that degree of alignment they stand no chance of convincing the public, and without the public's backing they cannot succeed.
Exactly. This is the first productive idea I've heard in years. Before anyone takes one more step, before even one more taxpayer dollar is spent on this quixotic quest, these folks should be sequestered until they can agree on a single set of principles, and come up with a coherent list of proposals and requests they all agree on and will stand behind.
Why is that important? Dont we in this country have multi political parties other then the 2 major ones who all have different ideas or agendas and are choatic, but don't get along. Do you not see my point? Why bring that up open?
Or getting our next walmart, which internet provider i should choice and keeping the population down in Hawai'i to those in six figures so property values don't go down. So much more important things then injustice to a few or etc.
I do believe you've got it.
If you ask is there injustice in Bacon and Eggs, the Pig will resoundingly say "Yes", the Chicken will say "Not Really", and the Diner will say "None Whatsoever". It is all perspective and how broadly one views things. Trying looking Big Picture for a while,and you'll understand that, for the overwhelming majority concerned, it was the best of all possible outcomes.
I mean yeah, how can capitalistic america be wrong, we are gods country. We are the most richest and powerful because we are the most rightous and virtuous! Gee sorry to question our motives, let me go back to sleep ok?
I agreed with everything you said, right up to the . Then, you lost me.
Exactly. This is the first productive idea I've heard in years. Before anyone takes one more step, before even one more taxpayer dollar is spent on this quixotic quest, these folks should be sequestered until they can agree on a single set of principles, and come up with a coherent list of proposals and requests they all agree on and will stand behind.
Absent that degree of alignment they stand no chance of convincing the public, and without the public's backing they cannot succeed.
I may be wrong on this, but I think the only consensus they will arrive at is what they oppose, NOT what they support.
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And truth be told, there was actually a fourth class in practice, the outcasts, who were thrown out of society for crazy or bad behavior and had no rights or privileges or property. They just had to fend for themselves, in the rough. So yes, even in 1840 there were homeless people in Hawai'i ! 
