How about this "Minnesota Ice" vs. "Minnesota Nice" stuff?? (Minneapolis: credit, vacation home)

[Latchkey Kid]

Originally Posted by sparksals

I think that is what stings the most. Despite trying to fit in, be accepted, it's a constant brick wall. I try to keep my cheer and normally positive attitude, but it wears thin. It really does.

Yes, there is absolutely a difference in the response I get trying to make friendly conversation with strangers here and back home. Here it's a crap shoot, the may respond in a polite, friendly, but keep-your-distance way or they don't respond at all, which I find strange. There are people that are willing to engage in a conversation, but I've got in the habit of asking where they are from, it very often it's not from here.

Now at home, it would be unusual to get no response at all. But I've had 20 minute or longer conversations with people I've met standing in line somewhere or in the grocery store. I've even had lunch with people I've just met minutes before.

[Latchkey Kid]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Funny that you're from southern CA, latchkey; I think we have more in common than you might think. I'm what the Pew Research Center people call a "dual loyalist," meaning I identify

No, I know you lived in LA for what four years, was it? I've seen you on the LA threads, I'm surpised you didn't recognize me. But juding from your posts here and there, I think we are coming from completely different experiences. Moving from MN to LA is not the same as the other way around.

[uptown_urbanist]

I did recognize your name, just forgot the exact context. I've lived in other places, too, not just LA (moved to LA by way of Delaware, Virginia, and DC). I'm sure we do have very different experiences. But doesn't that just highlight the fact that metro areas and states are made up of many different people, all with their own unique ways of approaching life? By some of these threads you'd think that all Minnesotans do is hunt, fish, go to the cabin, eat "hotdish," marry young, and hang out with their friends from kindergarten. The Twin Cities aren't anywhere near as big as the LA area, of course, but there's still a lot of diversity of types of people and experiences to be found.

[Latchkey Kid]

Yes, there's diversity, but there is also a characteristics that are more likely to be found in one place than another. I don't think anyone is saying each and every person is the same in any place, but you don't seem to agree that there are differences in cultural expectations and acceptable social behaviors that predominate from place to place.

[uptown_urbanist]

I do agree that there are different cultural expectations and acceptable social behaviors, but also think that there are differences at the micro-level. There are some larger regional characteristics, but there also differences when it come to specific neighborhood/community you're living in. Sincce this thread is "MInnesota nice," I'd say that there's a good chance that there are differences, potentially massive, between (just for examples) Eagan, the Uptown neighborhood of Minneapolis, Duluth, Alexandria, and Sleepy Eye. Just like in Southern CA there are big differences between the cultural expectations and social behaviors found in Hollywood, San Marino, Barstow, and Encinitas.

[Latchkey Kid]

We didn't come up with that "Minnesota Nice" thing. And since it is used often here and everyone seems know what is meant, it seems that Minnesotans have declared they are social different than the other 49 states, and are not subdividing it by city.

In any event, this seems to be a circular argument and you are determined to try to convince everyone that our perceptions are wrong and we have miraculously come up with all the same complaints. Maybe it's best to let us disgruntled transplants commiserate amongst ourselves.

[uptown_urbanist]

I'm a Minnesotan. I'm not socially different than people in every other state, at least I don't think I am. I've successfully made friends in other states, so apparently I'm not totally unapproachable. People would know what you mean by a lot of negative stereotypes, but that doesn't mean it's universally true.

I'm willing to say that there are cultural and regional differences, but given that we don't know where exactly in the state everyone who has posted on this board lives, there's no way to know whether it's a universal Minnesota thing (that somehow stops at the state border?) or whether it's more pronounced in some areas than in others.

Your perceptions aren't wrong, but not everyone originally from other states has had the levels of difficulties experienced by some on this board. It obviously varies from person to person, and some of that probably depends on location, on person, on age, and on any number of variables. I agree (and have said so, many times) that MN in general is more difficult to break into, socially, than many places, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, and that doesn't mean that there aren't other factors at play, either. That in no way is trying to blame anyone or to suggest that newer residents aren't making an effort, or that there aren't some unfriendly, cold, reserved Minnesotans out there.

And while many people don't seem to want to acknowledge this, trouble making friends is not something that is exclusively a MN problem. My best friends live in other states, and nearly all have had the same complaints. The most recent issue of Redbook magazine has an article about meeting friends when you're an adult. While there are undoubtedly some cultural issues to consider, any real insights are more likely to come when you look at larger American culture, coupled with a closer look at your specific city or neighborhood. I think it's easier to make friends in a place where not everyone is from the same place (and that means from the same city, not the same state; it's not like someone from Ely and someone from Minneapolis are automatically going to know a secret handshake or even share anything in common anymore than someone from Minneapolis and Los Angeles will; they might hit it off immediately and communicate in a similar style, but no guarantees.). I don't have personal experience, but I assume it's tougher to make friends in a small Minnesota town or in a family-oriented suburb than it is in the city neighborhoods that I'm familiar with. Maybe that's not true. I lived in a smaller Southern town for about a year and found it difficult to develop non-superficial friendships, and was just starting to feel a difference by the time we left. I chalked it up to being a small town where almost everyone had grown up there and had their childhood friends and family; I assume that's what it's like in small towns in MN, too, but I don't see how that could be the case in a city, at least not on as broad of a scale. Maybe I'm the one making broad sweeping generalizations in this case, and if I'm wrong about that I hope those with some city experience will speak up.

[Latchkey Kid]

I am in the city, others here are in the city. We have been speaking up. We have agreed with many of your points. We are saying there appears to be something BEYOND that, which seems to be specific to this part of the country. I don't know what else we can say. You seem to be picking out points in a few of the posts and arguing those and ignoring what the rest are repeatedly saying.

I am an adult. I live in the city. I am very friendly. I like to meet new people. I have made many good friends while I have been in Minnesota. None of them are from Minnesota. I have heard the same story from many other people, both on and off these forums. I do not read Redbook. I need to get a life, because this is getting silly. Why do I let myself get sucked into these things?

[uptown_urbanist]

I shouldn't get sucked in either, but I find it interesting that you're experiencing this so much in an urban neighborhood. My theory very well may be off, but it had seemed like the really family-oriented places (which would include some city neighborhoods, although my family in Kenny neighborhood of Mpls have befriended their neighbors) would be more difficult to break into, in part because there are so many families with young kids that are busy trying to live the ultra-scheduled lifestyle so common today. I have more personal experience with neighborhoods that have a broader mix of ages and backgrounds, as well as different community concerns. While I'd like never to have to worry about crime or other problems, a little adversity does seem to draw people together.

I'm not trying to argue, really I'm not, I'm just trying to tease out what is specifically Minnesotan, what is not, and to see if there are some places within the state or metro area that are more welcoming to newcomers than others.

Maybe I'm also feeling insecure because I don't feel like my experiences and lifestyle fit the "Minnesotan" stereotype, and it makes me feel a bit adrift. I also felt comfortable calling myself an Angeleno, too, when we lived there, as I don't think people need to be locked into considering themselves a lifelong Minnesotan, or a Californian, or anything else, simply because they were born there.

[Latchkey Kid]

I don't think it is necessarily about neighborhoods since you interact with more people outside of you neighborhood, i.e. work, school, etc.

It's not that there aren't other places in the US that don't welcome outsiders. But I think the reasons can be different from place to place. For instance, I can imagine Hawaii would be extremely difficult for a transplant. And I'd bet many Hawaiians don't hide the fact they don't care for transplants, while here there's a refusal to even accept there's a problem. I was really shocked by how out of place I felt when I had been here for awhile. I didn't even realize what the problem was until I happened to hear a segment on MN Public Radio about the problems transplants had making friends here. One lady actually called in to say that people invited new people over more in LA because they had large backyards while in MN it was too cold most of the time and there wasn't enough room in people's houses to invite many people over.

I don't think you need to fit the stereotype of where you live as long as you are happy there. Many people come in from out of state and fit right in to LA. Others are clearly fish out of water. To be able to live in LA, you have to really want to be there--the trade-offs have to be worth it to you.