How about this "Minnesota Ice" vs. "Minnesota Nice" stuff?? (Minneapolis: to rent, living in)

[sparksals]

Originally Posted by Latchkey Kid

Yes, I've noticed that too, which is really humorous when you are from LA. I've asked Minneapolitans (including bus drivers) questions about St. Paul (and vice versa) and they act like you need a passport to go there.

I don't mean to laugh, but that is true!!

Speaking of passport, I am from Canada and I am shocked when I'm told by many people here that they've never been. It's a 5 hour drive.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by sparksals

There are some people from here who do 'get it'. They are mostly those who moved away for some reason or another and came back to find their friends either gone or married with kids and no room in their lives for them anymore. At TCT, we have MANY natives who came back to have old friends here, but no more room in the social circle. It is a VERY common thing to occur. They are welcome in the group. We don't turn anyone away. .

I was just going to post something about this, but then you beat me to it. Sometimes people talk about Minnesota "natives" and what they really mean are people who are born in that state and have never left; there are many, many of us who are Minnesota natives, but who have lived elsewhere, and who have also forged new relationships and new friends (also, lots of Minnesota natives without little or no family in the state) as adults. There's also the many people I know who were born and raised in other states, moved to MN at some point as an adult, settled down and stayed, and you wouldn't necessarily know where they're from originally until you get to know them a bit better. That's true of my parents, my in-laws (my husband moved to MN as a kid), and the majority of my friends. They're not "natives," but they are Minnesotans. Unless someone has an obvious accent I can't usually peg where they're from (MN or elsewhere), and it doesn't always come up in initial conversations. I didn't answer the earlier question about "how many people do you know not from MN" because it was directed at those were born and raised in MN and never moved, but the answer would be that the slim majority of my MN-located friends were born elsewhere. Ironically, many of my MN-born and raised friends, and most of the ones I'm still in regular contact with (those from high school) now live in other states and countries. Now that we're in our 30s, many of them are trying to return to MN.

I haven't encountered many problems engaging people in casual conversations, but that may be because of where I spend my time. I know not everyone agrees, but I think an urban environment (or at least some urban environments) does make things easier.

[Latchkey Kid]

Let's just say natives are long-term Minnesotans, more likely than not to have spent at least some of their childhood and early adulthood in Minnesota and often have local family ties.

Well, I spend most of my time between Uptown and the U, so I don't know how much more urban it gets. Haven't noticed in difference in behavior in the suburbs.

Here's an interesting bit about Minnesota Nice: http://books.google.com/books?id=BUP6lBSdlrwC&pg=RA1-PA242&dq=%22Minnesota+nice%22#v=onepage&q=%22Minne sota%20nice%22&f=false (It begins with the last paragraph and carries to the top of the next page)

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by Latchkey Kid

Let's just say natives are long-term Minnesotans, more likely than not to have spent at least some of their childhood and early adulthood in Minnesota and often have local family ties.

Well, I spend most of my time between Uptown and the U, so I don't know how much more urban it gets. Haven't noticed in difference in behavior in the suburbs.

Here's an interesting bit about Minnesota Nice: http://books.google.com/books?id=BUP6lBSdlrwC&pg=RA1-PA242&dq=%22Minnesota+nice%22#v=onepage&q=%22Minne sota%20nice%22&f=false (It begins with the last paragraph and carries to the top of the next page)

Aaargh! I can see why people read this and see that it relates to some people, but as someone who talks to much, waves my arms around, doesn't mind a little confrontation, could probably use a little more emotional constraint, and am happy to share my feelings or disagreement (to the annoyance of some on this forum, I know) I think this is an outdated stereotype that, while maybe true for some people, is just as much of a generalization as saying that all Californians are laid back surfer dudes. I know a few people who fit that mold (my uncle), but many who don't (my dad, for example).

For what it's worth, I asked my mom for her opinion. She's technically a native Minnesotan, having been born in Dinkytown, but left the state as a toddler, visited throughout the years (that side of the family is Minnesotan), and returned to live when she was in her 30s. They've now lived in Uptown for 30+ years. She said that she's seen things change pretty dramatically during that time. It used to be that most people in Minneapolis were born and raised in the state, and that more people did seem to have some of the stereotypical "MN nice" characteristics (reserved, non-confrontational, etc.) That's not the norm anymore, or at least not in our family's combined experience. The Twin Cities have far more people from other cities, states, and countries now than they used to, and when I think to my own friends and our older family friends the majority aren't from Minnesota. Some are, of course, but many aren't. They moved here, liked it, and decided to stay. The majority of my friends moved away after high school for college, started their careers in other cities, married people from other states, and are now bringing their non-MN spouses with them back to live in MN. Many of my school friends who have stayed in MN have married people from elsewhere (many from other countries), so I think that's pretty typical, too. I also have friends and family who have spent their lives in MN, and I think they're pretty nice people, too, so don't give up on them.

I guess our experiences of Uptown and the U have just been different. I can't say that I like everyone I've met in Uptown, or some of the people who are actively involved in the neighborhood, but it seems pretty welcoming, and a lot of the people involved are also from other places. People talk to me on the playgrounds, when I've walked dogs (don't own any myself, but sometimes walk other people's), when I'm a the bus stop, on the bus, at garage sales (there's a tip: bored people running sales will more than likely be eager to talk to you), and elsewhere.

I will say that one of my college professors said that Minnesotans take too long to get to the point, and that he assigned longer papers in MN than in other states because Minnesotans need more time. Given the length of my posts I'd say he was right. On the other hand, this topic really bugs me because while I don't discount the fact that it can be tough in MN, I absolutely hate the MN nice stereotype, hate A Prairie Home Companion, and apparently don't have enough Minnesota reserve to just step away and let the topic go.

[Latchkey Kid]

Funny, because I found it a pretty good description of a lot of people I've encountered. I think you are trying to hard to disprove it. If most of the people you know aren't from MN, then maybe that proves the point that natives are more difficult get to know. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of the population was born and raised here. I don't know that I'd call your mother a native if she moved here in her 30's but there are other factors that would play into it.

I didn't say no one would talk to me, but it's not very engaging compared to what I'm used to in LA. I actually think the fact that I'm very gregarious puts off people.

[Latchkey Kid]

By the way, that book came out in 2007, published by the MN Historical Society Press, and written by a Minnesota historian. I'm not above arguing with historians, but I don't think you can just immediately dismiss it as an outdated stereotype. It just seems that no matter how much information you are presented with, you are just determined not to entertain that there may some truth to what we are saying. Most stereotypes don't just appear out of thin air without any basis in reality. Except maybe that angels have wings.

Aren't you a historian? Why don't you shoot Annette an email and see what her response is to your arguments?

[uptown_urbanist]

Well, if the fact that many of my friends aren't Minnesotans it could also prove that there are a lot of non-Minnesotans living in Minneapolis.

I think what bugs me most is that there are some people who DO embrace the A Prairie Home Companion stereotype (and maybe those are the people you're encountering) but either I just filter out those people and don't notice them, or it's not as universal a stereotype as one would like to think.

The MN stereotypes that I do fit are the fact that I'm not particularly touchy-feely (not a big hugger), I do have a Scandinavian background (can even speak some Norwegian, and while I don't eat lutefisk, I do like aquavit and gjetost), and am not quick to invite people over to my house, but that's partly because I have an at-times cranky, messy toddler.

I'm not saying that there aren't sterotypically reserved, quiet, non-confrontational Minnesotans out there, just that people shouldn't give up hope that there aren't others out there who are happy to meet new people. I admit that I'm also not best friend material for someone who doesn't have a kid right now, because unless they're willing to put up with a toddler or pay for daycare the reality is that until my son goes off to preschool my schedule is kind of weird.

[Latchkey Kid]

But no one every said there weren't non-Minnesotans here. In fact, a couple of us have made the very point that the friends we have made here aren't natives.

I don't think anyone "embraces" the stereotype. Do you really think people are trying to pattern their lives after the Prairie Home Companion? They are what they are.

I think you just need to accept that YOU don't fit the stereotype rather than try to argue that those kind of people don't exist in fairly significant numbers (at least enough to recognized by outsiders). By the way, I'm not really very familiar with PHC, so I came into this without preconceived ideas.

Oh, and if someone at home called someone else a typical surfer dude, I'd know exactly what they meant. Haven't met any here.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by Latchkey Kid

By the way, that book came out in 2007, published by the MN Historical Society Press, and written by a Minnesota historian. I'm not above arguing with historians, but I don't think you can just immediately dismiss it as an outdated stereotype. It just seems that no matter how much information you are presented with, you are just determined not to entertain that there may some truth to what we are saying. Most stereotypes don't just appear out of thin air without any basis in reality. Except maybe that angels have wings.

Aren't you a historian? Why don't you shoot Annette an email and see what her response is to your arguments?

Keep in mind that the stereotype is "Minnesota," not Minneapolis. Minneapolis is no longer the white, Scandinavian and Germanic city that it was in the past.

I'll have to get myself a copy that book. It does look interesting.

I have acknowledged that there's some truth to the fact that MN can be a tough place to meet friends, simply don't acknowledge that's all new arrivals should give up all hope, or that all people born in the state fit this stereotype. Or maybe I'm just bitter because I didn't have the good luck to make a best friend at age five and now I'm out of luck. (I'm joking about that, by the way; I'm married to someone originally from a small town in Illinois; the local politicians there like to advertise how they're "native" to win elections. Minneapolis may not be easy, but there are tougher places to crack).

If we're engaging in stereotypes, my husband and I have noticed that there's a certain Minnesota "look," at least among younger white women.

[Latchkey Kid]

White turtlenecks with cardigan sweaters?