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UU - I live in as much suburbia as you can get - Rosemount. Pretty conservative, family area. However, I also have friends who live in Uptown, downtown and everywhere in between. They all report the same problem. I don't think it is limited to suburbia.
Latchkey has a point that I touched upon earlier about the refusal to acknowledge there is a problem. Maybe it was in another thread. I compared Flagstaff AZ to MN. My point was that Flag is even more closed than the TCs, but at least they don't make excuses or deny it. It is what it is. The denial and excuses here are bothersome to me.
Yes, there a two threads going simutaneously about this and it can get confusing about who said what where.
I have a vague recollection of being in Flagstaff and thinking people weren't all that friendly. But it is vague memory. Sometimes folks in really touristy places have had enough of the tourists.
I read that post, too, but they do blur together. I thought it was an interesting point. I'm not sure about what you mean by being blatant about it, though; I assume you don't mean people outright told you "I'm not interested in being your friend?"
I suppose the reason I focus on neighborhoods is because that (and volunteering) has been the context where I've met most of my non-work or non-school friends. Minneapolis's neighborhood structure, for all its faults, means that there is a formal organization for every neighborhood in the city. Some neighborhoods are more active than others, but they do offer people a chance to get involved, if they are so inclined. For me that stands out because I've never experienced that level of small-scale organization in any other city I've lived in. It makes it easier to seek out formal venues to meet neighbors, rather than just depending on running into them while walking around or at the playground. That way once you do start seeing them when you're out walking around you already know who they are and can start building on that foundation.
I agree that some of the earlier posts on some of these threads have been pretty offensive (both for putting all the blame on new residents, as well as putting all the blame on Minnesotans).
Maybe the Minnesotan in me means that I simply don't notice it as much when people brush me off. I really don't think people are any nicer or more receptive to me because I was born in the state (I'm not sure if anyone is arguing that or not), but it is possible that as someone who grew up in Minnesota I filter out some of the stuff that those not from here notice, or maybe just don't take it as personally because it doesn't strike me as noteworthy. If a neighbor or coworker is reserved, or polite but not particulary warm, I move on, in part because I have other local people in my life and don't feel the same pressing need to get to know people that I, at least, sometimes feel when moving to a brand-new place.
I don't believe that Minnesotans are closed off to new friends (because otherwise everyone would have their friends set at age five, and that's not the case for most of the people I know) or that newcomers have a harder time making friends than do native Minnesotans. It could be that the timeframe for making friends can go more slowly in MN, which would put long-time residents at an advantage because they already have local friends and don't notice the slow pace. Couple that with potentially a greater awareness of or frustration at being seemingly rejected, and I could see why people would complain about it being tough to make friends, or at least to make friends quickly. With time, though, everyone should be able to find friends. That's not to say that it's not frustrating to move along so slowly if you're new in town, or to interact with a lot of polite but not particularly friendly neighbors.
That's not an excuse or a denial, just an attempt to figure out the roots of the issue.
Maybe the neighborhood thing is part of what makes it hard to break thru. It's a concept I'm not familiar with. I easily drive thirty mile at home to see a friend without giving it much thought.
I've been here over five years, and I think that's more than long enough, especially since I've made really good friends with non-natives. I've made friends with natives, but they haven't lasted. Yet on one my trips back home, I made a really good friend there that I've have had for five years now.
I think the tourist part is only a portion of it. Flagstaff is a very transient town with tourists, but also people from California and Phoenix who have summer /vacation homes there. The locals resent that home prices were driven up beyond affordability for them b/c of the McMansions built by outsiders. Flag is very environmentalist and there is the belief that all the people with vacation homes are not as concerned with the environment as the locals.
When we lived there, we couldn't afford to buy a home in Flag. We had to buy outside. The price of a house next to Sanford and Son was obscene and it wasn't because of the recent RE boom - this was before. We were lucky, we sold in the height of it before we moved to Tucson. So, the locals are resentful that temporary people who don't cherish the beauty and environment infiltrate their beautiful town. They're left holding the bag in terms of higher property taxes when these people are only there temporarily. They don't feel they do enough for the local economy, instead, they feel the vacationers hinder it.
Add to the mix is NAU, so it is a university town. Many who grew up there leave, so those who stay are deep rooted, probably even moreso than Minnesotans. You don't have a hope in hell of getting a job at one of the major employers (NAU, hospital, Purina or Gore) unless you have a family member or know someone.
Flagstaff is a beautiful place. They have a strong belief in the mom and pop operations and fight tooth and nail the big box stores, chain restaurants etc. We frequently had to go to Phoenix to do major shopping b/c Flag severely lacked major purchase things.
But, to give them credit, they didn't deny or hide their disdain for newbies. This is the problem I have here. There is a sense of denial here that it can't possibly be like we describe and that the transplants are either making it up or not doing enough to make friends. No matter how much we try to go through hoops to be welcomed and accepted, it's still not enough.
I'm sure it's not nice to hear that transplants feel unwelcome and unaccepted. So, defense mode kicks in rather than acknowledgment. Yet even after knowing how transplants feel and what they experience, it is still denied rather than making a gesture to welcome a transplant you know. Maybe it's a coworker, maybe a neighbour, maybe a fellow hockey mom.
I asked this somewhere... it could have been in another thread (to add to the confusion) - how many friends do you have who are not from here? If you happen to have an acquaintance who is a transplant, not necessarily a friend, ask them their experience and see what they say. Those who have not had any difficulty making friends or being accepted are in the minority.
We don't want to dump on a place or the people. I'm not looking for bad things to say. I'm generally a positive, optimistic person. I would love to be able to say that I like it here because Minnesotans are so friendly, welcoming and accepting. I really wish I could say that. But it's just not the case.
I will say that I had a much easier time moving to Seoul, Korea than here. Despite the language barrier and MAJOR cultural differences, I made friends, the locals were very welcoming and went out of their way to help, be friendly and be a friend.
After experiencing Flagstaff, Tucson was a 180. My confidence and self esteem were pretty low in Flag b/c I thought there was something wrong with me. Turns out it wasn't me at all because I made friends very quickly there. Then, upon hearing we were moving here and learning nice vs. ice, I had to take the bull by the horns and learn as much as I could about how to make friends here. I was somewhat prepared, but was totally blind sided moving to Flag.
Meetup has been our saviour in getting out to meet people and socialize. I have been proactive and don't expect people to walk up to me and be my friend. But I'm also not going to beat my head against a wall and do all the work. Meet me in the middle.
I have accepted that MN is this way which is why we took the bull by the horns and became proactive in finding people to meet. Honestly, if my neighbour or coworker doesn't want to be my friend, that is their loss. You don't have time for friends or enough room in your established circles because you're so busy or don't want new friends. That is absolutely fine. But really, it is not us missing out, it is you.
I read that post, too, but they do blur together. I thought it was an interesting point. I'm not sure about what you mean by being blatant about it, though; I assume you don't mean people outright told you "I'm not interested in being your friend?"
I suppose the reason I focus on neighborhoods is because that (and volunteering) has been the context where I've met most of my non-work or non-school friends. Minneapolis's neighborhood structure, for all its faults, means that there is a formal organization for every neighborhood in the city. Some neighborhoods are more active than others, but they do offer people a chance to get involved, if they are so inclined. For me that stands out because I've never experienced that level of small-scale organization in any other city I've lived in. It makes it easier to seek out formal venues to meet neighbors, rather than just depending on running into them while walking around or at the playground. That way once you do start seeing them when you're out walking around you already know who they are and can start building on that foundation.
I agree that some of the earlier posts on some of these threads have been pretty offensive (both for putting all the blame on new residents, as well as putting all the blame on Minnesotans).
Maybe the Minnesotan in me means that I simply don't notice it as much when people brush me off. I really don't think people are any nicer or more receptive to me because I was born in the state (I'm not sure if anyone is arguing that or not), but it is possible that as someone who grew up in Minnesota I filter out some of the stuff that those not from here notice, or maybe just don't take it as personally because it doesn't strike me as noteworthy. If a neighbor or coworker is reserved, or polite but not particulary warm, I move on, in part because I have other local people in my life and don't feel the same pressing need to get to know people that I, at least, sometimes feel when moving to a brand-new place.
I don't believe that Minnesotans are closed off to new friends (because otherwise everyone would have their friends set at age five, and that's not the case for most of the people I know) or that newcomers have a harder time making friends than do native Minnesotans.It could be that the timeframe for making friends can go more slowly in MN, which would put long-time residents at an advantage because they already have local friends and don't notice the slow pace. Couple that wit h potentially a greater awareness of or frustration at being seemingly rejected, and I could see why people would complain about it being tough to make friends, or at least to make friends quickly. With time, though, everyone should be able to find friends. That's not to say that it's not frustrating to move along so slowly if you're new in town, or to interact with a lot of polite but not particularly friendly neighbors.
That's not an excuse or a denial, just an attempt to figure out the roots of the issue.
No, no one said it outright. But when talking to our neighbour in Flag (who was also dh's co-worker), he admitted completely it was like it there. Our realtor told us the same thing - that's it's a very closed community. Unless you are an outdoorsy environmentalist, you're not going to be accepted. Period. Anyone 'not from there' who is not an NAU student are viewed with great suspicion b/c the people with vacation homes don't contribute to the local economy, so that extends to people who move there for job or whatever other reason.
Wow - I think you're starting to get it or at least view it from our angle. I really appreciate it that!
It could be that it is not noticed b/c you don't have the same pressing need. You already have the established social network, so when someone is aloof or doesn't appear to be interested, it's something you can brush off. However, for us, it is yet another rejection.
I don't need to make friends quickly. I prefer to let a friendship grow. I have been screwed a few times in the past, so I do hold some cards to my chest. However, I am also a very open and welcoming person. It's how I was raised. I worked at my local grocery store while I went to university at home. I knew EVERYONE in the neighbourhood. When I walked around the park or was at the local watering hole, I always ran into someone I knew. This is not MN's fault b/c I moved a few times. But, I really miss that familiarity. Perhaps that's a function of homesickness and just part of moving.
I do appreciate your acknowledgments and that you are genuinely trying to look at it from our perspective.
Maybe the neighborhood thing is part of what makes it hard to break thru. It's a concept I'm not familiar with. I easily drive thirty mile at home to see a friend without giving it much thought.
I've been here over five years, and I think that's more than long enough, especially since I've made really good friends with non-natives. I've made friends with natives, but they haven't lasted. Yet on one my trips back home, I made a really good friend there that I've have had for five years now.
We live in Rosemount which is pretty conservative and family oriented. We don't have kids, so we have little in common with most of our neighbours. I don't think we'd be happier or have the opportunity to make friends or meet people living in a more urban area.
I thought of volunteering in the community to meet people, but since this community is SO family oriented, we don't really fit in as the conversation always defaults and revolves around the kid's soccer, cheering, hockey... etc.
I do get comments from people that where we live is WAY out there. This is when I stop at the pub in Richfield or when I went to PT there. It's not far at all... maybe 20 minute drive, but to locals it's like it's out in the boonies or something. lol
I think the Minnesota Ice thing might really apply to the Upper Midwest area in general.
I've been really shocked by the idea that you can have "enough" friends. I was trying to get a local to go to some function or other and she had a list of reasons not to. And I said something about never know, you might meet some new friends and I got the "enough" response. Someone on the forum said the same thing at some point. What exactly is the quota? But it does show an unwillingness to be open to new friendships.
And I don't think the problem is just making a new best friend right away. It's very difficult here to engage strangers in casual conversation. That's one of things that seems isolating to me.
I do get comments from people that where we live is WAY out there. This is when I stop at the pub in Richfield or when I went to PT there. It's not far at all... maybe 20 minute drive, but to locals it's like it's out in the boonies or something. lol
Yes, I've noticed that too, which is really humorous when you are from LA. I've asked Minneapolitans (including bus drivers) questions about St. Paul (and vice versa) and they act like you need a passport to go there.
Yes!!!! I don't understand that line of thought either. It's very foreign to me that someone can have 'enough' friends'.
I can't attest to the MW thing b/c I have only experienced it here in the TC's. Although, we went to WI in July, stayed at a cabin and went to the local watering hole. The locals, the bartender, everyone were very friendly and were more than willing to engage in conversation.
DH and I went to visit his mom in MD a few months ago. We found a neighbourhood pub, got to chatting with some of the locals. DH works for the federal govt, and a large percentage of people in that area are also fed employees.
What shocked us was we were invited to a BBQ the next night. We talked to the people in that pub for a couple hours and they had us at their home the next night. Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum. Now, don't get me wrong, that is completely opposite and I would never expect that here. That is not my expectation of friendliness and hospitality. That is an extreme, but it was still very nice.
There are some people from here who do 'get it'. They are mostly those who moved away for some reason or another and came back to find their friends either gone or married with kids and no room in their lives for them anymore. At TCT, we have MANY natives who came back to have old friends here, but no more room in the social circle. It is a VERY common thing to occur. They are welcome in the group. We don't turn anyone away.
It's the old adage, you can't possibly know until you walk a mile in one's shoes.
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