Why is Mississippi trying to shut down its only abortion clinic? (Jackson: to live in, law)

[KaoCT]

Originally Posted by sibelian

First, it's not a "regional" issue. A woman's right (yes, her constitutional right) to obtain medical abortion services should not depend on where she lives; it should not depend on the small minds and Victorian moral values of others who do not know her. Why should a woman who lives in New York state (or any other state) have more access to a constitutional right than women who live in Mississippi ? Of course, Mississippi women of means will travel to get what they need, leaving poor women (who are usually of color) to bear the burden of unwanted children and the scorn of their supposedly Christian neighbors.

Second, and more importantly, why is it that on this state board, more than any other, residents fiercely complain of "outsiders" who "seem to feel their thoughts are of value" on supposedly "local" issues ? This is the same complaint that was made when "out-of-staters" came to Mississippi in the Freedom Summer of 1964 to register black voters and organize the Freedom Democratic party. Back then, of course, the insular, close-minded, and bigoted white proletariat of Mississippi, wanting to protect their sacred way of life (i.e., keeping the Negro in his place), committed violence against many people, including three young men who wound up with bullets in their heads and fans tied around their bodies to sink them to the bottom of a pond.

Mississippi was wrong then, just like it's been wrong on so many things since then. It's a vicious cycle: poorly educated, unengaged, and insular communities, who can't accept that others don't share their values, morals, beliefs, and practices, attempt to coerce those others by twisting the law, invading people's privacy, and committing acts of violence.

"Outsiders" have every right ... even a duty ... to present the opposing point of view. The fact is, Mississippi is getting left behind. The world is changing, and Mississippi needs to change as well. America is not the homogeneous, white, Judeo-Christian entity that it once was (if it ever was, really). You're certainly entitled to your religious beliefs down there (and let's be honest ... the objections to abortion are, to a very great degree, based on religion), but stop forcing others to live by your beliefs. At some point, you really have to accept this about abortion (and gay marriage, too): that it's none of your business.

Great post.

[p-squared]

Originally Posted by sibelian

States are not entitled to extinguish a constitutional right via a licensing scheme with a transparently false premise; your own governor has stated that his goal is to eliminate abortions entirely in Mississippi. The rationale for the licensing scheme is thus a bald-faced lie; Judge Jordan's injunction undoubtedly will be extended, and the federal courts will uphold it. "As they see fit" ?!? NO. As the Constitution permits ... something your state never gets right.

You are seeing conspiracy everywhere. As they see fit...YES.

Originally Posted by sibelian

I never said one word about racism. I never called anyone a racist. I simply pointed out that the burden of Mississippi's abortion "regulations" falls squarely on the underclass, which in Mississippi is comprised largely of black folk. [Mississippi has the largest percentage of blacks among the states; 37.3% of the population is black. Yet, 42% of all blacks live in poverty in Mississippi, as opposed to only 15% of whites. Source: Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity - Kaiser State Health Facts.] You appear to be the one who is "quite stupidly" accusing me of being a racist for stating simple, documented facts. Like Mississippi being dead last in median household income, first in number of people below the poverty line, first in infant mortality (i.e., the most babies dying), and first in percentage of babies born at low birth weight. With stats like those, Mississippi deserves to have "outsiders" come in and run it. If the state were run like a corporation, your CEO and board of directors would be out. Hell, you'd be in bankruptcy court.

You compared yourself and your mindless drive to abort as many children as possible to the Freedom Riders and their drive to register black voters, so any resistance to your efforts are therefore racist. Now, you throw a bunch of statistics at me in an attempt to distract from the truth, that is, your silly effort to bring racism into this argument.

Originally Posted by sibelian

I don't have beliefs about abortion.

Now who's lying?

Originally Posted by sibelian

...unlike someone like you, who believes that people should live their lives based on your biblical worldview.

A bold statement, considering you don't know anything about me. I do not believe people should live their lives according to my (non-existant) biblical worldview, just that Texans should spend less time forcing others to live by their worldview.

Originally Posted by sibelian

Just tell me, because you haven't yet: what business is it of yours if a woman wants to have an abortion in the first trimester ??? I'm waiting .....

I believe life begins at conception. It's that simple.

Radical feminists such as yourself will not be happy until there is a Planned Parenthood abortion franchise on every street corner and in every school health clinic. Y'all have decided that having the "right" to kill a child somehow expresses your freedom as strong, independent women. You believe that aborting a child is the same as burning your bra, and you want to force everyone everywhere to share in that belief.

City-Data forums has a Texas link. You clearly have no love or affection for Mississippi as evidenced by your many insults. Why are you even here in Mississippi? Does it make you feel good about yourself to hate on someone?

[sibelian]

Originally Posted by p-squared

You are seeing conspiracy everywhere. As they see fit...YES.

You compared yourself and your mindless drive to abort as many children as possible to the Freedom Riders and their drive to register black voters, so any resistance to your efforts are therefore racist. Now, you throw a bunch of statistics at me in an attempt to distract from the truth, that is, your silly effort to bring racism into this argument.

Now who's lying?

A bold statement, considering you don't know anything about me. I do not believe people should live their lives according to my (non-existant) biblical worldview, just that Texans should spend less time forcing others to live by their worldview.

I believe life begins at conception. It's that simple.

Radical feminists such as yourself will not be happy until there is a Planned Parenthood abortion franchise on every street corner and in every school health clinic. Y'all have decided that having the "right" to kill a child somehow expresses your freedom as strong, independent women. You believe that aborting a child is the same as burning your bra, and you want to force everyone everywhere to share in that belief.

City-Data forums has a Texas link. You clearly have no love or affection for Mississippi as evidenced by your many insults. Why are you even here in Mississippi? Does it make you feel good about yourself to hate on someone?

Yes, it's clear to everyone that you, and the state of Mississippi, believe that the state can ignore the requirements of federal law and do whatever it wants. Happily for everyone who believes in the rule of law, the federal courts exist to put you and the state in your place.

I didn't compare anyone to the Freedom riders. I used Mississippi's opposition to the Freedom riders as an example of Mississippi's hostility to outsiders, a hostility that you continue to exhibit by suggesting that I and others have no right to express viewpoints on this forum since we are not Mississippi residents. Not only are you unable to comprehend what you read, your tortuous logic in arriving at my presumed racism is stunningly idiotic.

You believe life begins at conception. The Supreme Court believes, for purposes of a woman's constitutional right to obtain an abortion, that life begins at viability. You lose. It's been 40 years since Roe v. Wade was decided. It's time for you to accept that you're not the moral arbiter of the universe. The state of Mississippi needs to understand that its underhanded efforts to deprive women of their constitutional rights will be fought, and defeated.

And, surprise ... I happen to be a man. And I don't hate anyone ... but I do despise stupidity, intolerance, bigotry, shallowness, and deceit, among other things.

[p-squared]

I certainly do comprehend what I read, and what you implied with your statements.

I have never claimed to be the moral arbiter of the universe, that job has been taken. You really have a way with exaggeration.

Do you argue as vehemently against states like Colorado or Washington that have "legalized" marijuana, in spite of federal law? Do you argue as vehemently against states and cities that call themselves "sanctuary" for illegal aliens? Do you argue against a presidential administration that refuses to uphold federal laws such as the Defense of Marriage Act? I have my doubts.

Based on my torturous reading and comprehension of the Roe v Wade decision, I cannot find any reference to SCOTUS believing that "life begins at viability" as you claim. They define viability as approximately the first trimester, but NOWHERE do they claim that life begins at viability.

Thanks for the discussion, it's always great to hear viewpoints from other folks. You are awesome.

[oldenfatt]

You can be a feminist and male. Its not mutually exclusive.

[An Einnseanair]

Before a moderator comes along to lock this thread, the purpose of this particular forum is to discuss things pertaining specifically to Mississippi. So the original question, "Why is Mississippi trying to shut down its only abortion clinic?", is somewhat valid.

Unfortunately, this type of topic always degenerates into a generic "Pro-Choice!" "Pro-Life!" "Fetus!" "Baby!" "My Body!" "Murderer!" screaming match, which isn't even close to valid.

The Politics and Other Controversies forum (where general abortion threads are welcome) is located HERE.

[sibelian]

Originally Posted by p-squared

I certainly do comprehend what I read, and what you implied with your statements.

I have never claimed to be the moral arbiter of the universe, that job has been taken. You really have a way with exaggeration.

Do you argue as vehemently against states like Colorado or Washington that have "legalized" marijuana, in spite of federal law? Do you argue as vehemently against states and cities that call themselves "sanctuary" for illegal aliens? Do you argue against a presidential administration that refuses to uphold federal laws such as the Defense of Marriage Act? I have my doubts.

Based on my torturous reading and comprehension of the Roe v Wade decision, I cannot find any reference to SCOTUS believing that "life begins at viability" as you claim. They define viability as approximately the first trimester, but NOWHERE do they claim that life begins at viability.

Thanks for the discussion, it's always great to hear viewpoints from other folks. You are awesome.

To quote the worst president in modern history, "there you go again". You're not reading what I wrote. I never said that the Supreme Court "held" or "decided" or "stated" or "claimed" that life begins at viability; I stated that the court believed that premise. They used that premise to formulate the trimester distinctions that mark the Roe ruling. And I know what I'm talking about, because I knew Justice Blackmun (and the other justices) quite well. I won't tell you how I knew them, but knew them I did.

I won't discuss the other issues you mention, because this isn't the thread to do so.

And thanks for the compliment. I get that a lot, actually.

[sibelian]

Originally Posted by jwkilgore

Before a moderator comes along to lock this thread, the purpose of this particular forum is to discuss things pertaining specifically to Mississippi. So the original question, "Why is Mississippi trying to shut down its only abortion clinic?", is somewhat valid.

Unfortunately, this type of topic always degenerates into a generic "Pro-Choice!" "Pro-Life!" "Fetus!" "Baby!" "My Body!" "Murderer!" screaming match, which isn't even close to valid.

The Politics and Other Controversies forum (where general abortion threads are welcome) is located HERE.

I think we have stayed remarkably on topic. I initially ventured that Mississippi does what it does because of the large population of religious fanatics ... people who believe that the bible is the law of the land rather than the Constitution. I also ventured that Mississippi has a hostility to "outsiders" ... moreso than almost any other state. I ventured that the governor is dead-set on eliminating all abortions from the state, through any mechanism possible, and that the current regulations related to "staffing privileges" are a pretext ... the state has never offered any evidence that the regulations are rationally related to protecting a woman's health. And, when another forum member offers ridiculous reasoning, or twists my words, or otherwise engages in dubious debate tactics, I call them on it.

I've re-read my posts, and I don't see any screaming match or degenerate comments at all. In fact, I've gotten favorable comments about my posts from other forum members. I must be missing something here. Does the nature of the topic upset you ?

[sibelian]

Originally Posted by oldenfatt

You can be a feminist and male. Its not mutually exclusive.

Well, I don't deny being a feminist. I believe that women are equal to men and I stand by their right to control their bodies.

I don't have a bra to burn, though (contrary to suggestion). So I thought that mention of my gender was appropriate.

[p-squared]

I demolished your "woman's right to do with her body what she wants" argument by providing several examples of government control over people and their bodies. You failed to answer.

I destroyed your "it's the law and Mississippi must do it" argument by providing several examples of governments, big and small, blatently refusing to uphold the laws you hold so near and dear to your heart. You failed to answer.

I obliterated your "every state must enact all these laws equally" argument by providing a specific example, concealed carry, of governments NOT implementing federal laws equally. You failed to answer.

I knew fairly early on you were a lawyer, as you parse your words and descend into arguing minor points such as the meaning of what the word "is" is. You also avoid answering questions by acting as if they don't exist, which makes me think you are/were a politician or some sort of aide. And name-dropping SCOTUS justices is meaningless, just ask the Tooth Fairy. I know her well, I just can't tell you how.

Let's set aside the pro-life versus pro-death stuff and lay it out in layman's English. SCOTUS has ruled (some would say incorrectly) that a woman has a right to obtain an abortion until around the end of the first trimester, or "viability". What SCOTUS did/can NOT do, and federal law does/can NOT do, is force states to facilitate a woman's application of that right. If an abortionist sets up shop in Mississippi and can meet the requirements for licensing and registration, then the abortionist has the right to do so, and women have the right to go there. The abortionists in Jackson have failed/are failing to meet those requirements. You claim Mississippi is deliberately blocking their attempt to operate an abortion clinic, and that claim will be challenged in court.

I don't even know where I am going with this anymore. No point arguing any further. My participation is ending due to lack of interest.