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I do not hear SAHMs complain anymore than anyone else. But that is just me. And to be fair, I know very few of them, because I live in a HCOLA and there are a lot of working moms.
I couldn't be a SAHM. So kudos to them.
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Originally Posted by Mentallect
Yeah, you are right that you aren't who I was ORIGINALLY responding to, but since you jumped in the middle of it and helped attack me when I wasn't responding to you anyway (which made it easy to confuse the two of you), then just chalk what I posted up to the other poster and don't expect any type of apology from me (or maybe you, like several others, are a troll who has MULTIPLE accounts, and you got yourself confused responding under the wrong one). Now, bye. Gotta get back to work for now. Will probably just use my block feature for you (and your duel account) and a couple others in this thread first before I do, though.
She is not a troll. She is a regular poster in the NYC forum.
It was very easy to follow the different posts and who was saying what.
Fair question. And they, of course have every right to complain. As unfair as it may be, I don't think society looks at someone complaining about a job the same as someone complaining about being a SAHP though. I think there are two main reasons:
1). Being a SAHP is a choice for the most part. With few exceptions, most people MUST work. Complaining about something one CHOOSES to do is viewed differently than complaining about some one must do.
2). Being a SAHP is a privilege that many families simply cannot afford. I'm not sure someone in a family that has both spouses working just to get by, but who would desperately love to raise their own kids instead of a daycare doing it, is all that sympathetic regarding the complaints of a SAHP who is bored or who complains about how stressful it is to manage shopping and playdates.
I think this is true for many but I would absolutely NOT say "most." Definitely far, far away from half, on the low side.
Being a SAHP is often the result of realizing that if you want just two children and aren't a Very-High Earner yourself, childcare costs are going to match or exceed your income. Or, you're suddenly an unreliable employee and are fired because your daycare center will not keep your child when remotely sick. Over and over, demoralizing you and your spouse every step of the way until you realize that you can't be fired from being your own daycare worker. You can BOTH be sick and miserable at home, together. You can make do without the second car/insurance/gas, work attire, and actually have some stability that isn't *entirely* dictated by trying to make two different employers' expectations work for your family.
It happens when parents realize that it costs more to have a job that nets $80/week, if that, than to just have one parent stay home and earn no pay.
I really, REALLY recommend to all SAHPs who NEED to stay home to save money that they earn SOME money on the side... or go into staying at home with the expectation that they will be watching one other child for pay. It is the only time I've been satisfied as a SAHM; having the ability to preserve the good income for NEEDS and savings but having an extra $200-$300/week *while at home* to do all the things that make being a SAHM in the long run a tolerable position. Paying for a museum membership. To put gas in your vehicle - to pay for that second vehicle at all, perhaps. To meet a mom for coffee. To pay $20 for a few drinks and an appetizer. To buy some nice things at a thrift store so you have the same "stuff" as a "luxury SAHM." To enroll your kids in the $45/mo. soccer program like your kids' friends [kids of working moms] are doing. To pay for ice cream after a game occasionally. All little things that make a HUGE difference in your self worth, when it is literally your job to make YOURSELF (and the tiny humans you made and care for) as small a financial priority and emotional burden on your partner as possible.
There is emotional stress that builds from keeping your needs minute and further demand as children get older and more expensive (babies are cheap when you're a SAHP), and each increase in the child's cost is perceived by the working parent to be a failure in the SAHP to keep costs low. And the SAHP has done a LOT of work to keep that increase from being FAR MORE than what the working parent sees. The job of the SAHP is expected to be keeping the working parent as stress-free as possible so they can focus on their work. Working parent sees SAHP as being lax in allowing an increase and doesn't EXPERIENCE how much work went into that increase being ONLY that much because the working parent isn't sharing in the burden of *anything* besides getting to work and doing their job. The working spouse often doesn't understand how much effort goes into their children not being a-holes because they're not involved in seeing the tantrums and follow-through, day after day, year after year. Their children are also supposed to be geniuses, like their working-parent friends' children, who are enrolled at pre-SCHOOLS because they can afford it... at facilities that hire out meals, cleaning, and prep *after all the children leave and they can finally get some things done.*
And then, here come their working-mom peers... telling them that all this is a LUXURY. They're SO LUCKY. Uh huh.
Having that bit of income, while being a SAHP, will keep you in just enough dignity to be satisfied. You can bear the brunt of the children's and your expenses until you talk over the increase with your partner. You can stand your ground a bit more with some financial slush room.
The only other way I can see it working is for the employed spouse to pay the SAHP what their children would cost in childcare, at a minimum, then share ALL household tasks, parental responsibilities, and make the budget work... because they'll be paying that much, at a minimum, if they were divorced.
Because of our work schedules I leave 3-4hrs earlier in the morning.
Ok, fair enough. I wasn't aware of your vs your husband's work schedules.
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But even if I didn't, in a partnership you need to find the middle ground. My husband would let dishes sit in the sink until they grow mold. Actually, he wouldn't clean anything. He once "forgot" to clean our bathroom while I was at sea for over a month to such a degree that algae was growing in the toilet. Cleaning is never a priority for him. If we followed your example I would have to do everything and he would do nothing.
Just keep in mind that in many households, tasks are going to be divided based on who is better at doing a particular task, or based on who likes doing it more (or dislikes doing it less). That arrangement might not work for you and your family, but it does not make it wrong for other families. It sounds like you and your husband have a different arrangement, and that it is working well so far.
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Meanwhile, I don't particularly care what we eat. My husband otoh, is a big foodie. He has certain wants with regards to food that are of low priority to me. Because we are partners I respect that those priorities while not being mine, are still important to us as a family. So while I don't care if the butter is irish or not, I know he does and will go out of my way to meet that need of his. And that one extend from groceries to where we eat to even where we vacation. According to you, we shouldn't be going to the fancy restaurants he likes since I have little interest right?
No, I never said that.
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Or even if he wants to put truffles in the pasta, I can avoid picking them up at the high end market on my way home from work since it is a higher priority for him?
Again, if your work schedules allow, it could make sense for your husband to do all or most of the cooking and grocery shopping if it's a higher priority for him, if he's better at it than you, and if he enjoys it more than you.
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So instead of pretending that we aren't a partnership we pick the things that really mattered and we honor that for each other. So he empties the dishwasher in the morning, so the kids and I can load it throughout the day, and I will buy ingredients that I think are overly expensive and pointless.
Again, it sounds like you and your husband have an arrangement that works for you. Just keep in mind that every family is different, and in some families, other arrangements (such as husband doing most of the cooking and grocery shopping, wife doing most of the bathroom cleaning and dishwasher unloading) might work better for them. Every family is different, and they need to figure out and agree to what works for them, just as you and your husband seem to have figured out something that works for you.
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Mentioning facts is not bashing. If I had said men don't take responsibility for the managerial aspects of a family because they are lazy that would be bashing. I don't think that is the reason at all. But it is a fact that even in homes where the work load is even (i.e. both people work outside the home and both do similar levels of chores) women are still more likely to be responsible for far more of the "other" like remembering to take the kids, pets, etc to doctors, dentists, sports, etc.
In an individual family, if the wife is the one who is better at those tasks and doesn't mind those tasks as much, what is so wrong with the wife being the one to primarily do those tasks? You already said that both spouses are doing their fair share of the work in and out of the house.
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Nope. You are being a hypocrite. Saying agree to disagree doesn't make you less of one.
How am I being a hypocrite, just because we don't agree on something? One of my pet peeves is being expected to be a mindreader. One of your pet peeves is reminding people to do things. How does that make me a hypocrite?
I wanted to be a housewife and mother; and my husband wanted me to be one. He doesn’t really want me to go back to work for outside employment even when the kids are gone, unless I really want to. He values having my skills and abilities working for him and our family in a variety of ways.
But I homeschool the kids - that’s three kids in various grades and three non students right now, so if we are tallying that’s a whole lot of salary and babysitting money right there.
One of our kids is special needs and we have appointments and therapies multiple days per week. So add drive time to the eight hour school day, plus organizing the ongoing medical drama and keeping him happy and functioning. That’s skilled nursing level tasks, plus the daily therapy load, on top of the normal toddler activities and needs.
And then there is cleaning, cooking, having energy and time for my husband, church, and even the occasional friend.
I have NEVER held a job that was anywhere near as ceaselessly demanding. Working was a break compared to all the things I have to complete each day. And not mindless things either - teaching logic and algebra and phonics is hardly mindless. Teaching a baby how to roll or swallow because they can’t do it without assistance is also not mindless. And cooking non crappy food three times a day, with multiple loads of laundry and cleanups and commutes in between? Also not trivial.
I wanted this and asked for it before we married. He was thrilled. We both agreed. Some days are still extremely difficult and I vent about it. But I wouldn’t change it, even on the hard days. And there are a lot of them right now.
And the fact remains - my family are the only people who find me indispensable and irreplaceable. They need me most. And since time is an entirely inelastic resource and very precious, I choose to spend my time and energy on them.
We are one of those families with life insurance on me. If I died my husband would have to pay out the nose for private school and daycare, skilled nursing and aides, a housekeeper, and probably a big chunk in increased food expenses too. And that’s just the basics. So we insure accordingly, because I do contribute economic value and importance to him and he recognizes that. This life - being at home - isn’t the easiest choice for us. It has a lot of trade offs and financial risk to only have one income eight people rely on. But it was the right choice and we do what we have to do to make it work. It doesn’t mean we both don’t complain every once in awhile
As for Moms who are also employed? They have just as much right to complain. Life is hard and som days just suck!
Being a SAHP is often the result of realizing that if you want just two children and aren't a Very-High Earner yourself, childcare costs are going to match or exceed your income. Or, you're suddenly an unreliable employee and are fired because your daycare center will not keep your child when remotely sick. Over and over, demoralizing you and your spouse every step of the way until you realize that you can't be fired from being your own daycare worker. You can BOTH be sick and miserable at home, together. You can make do without the second car/insurance/gas, work attire, and actually have some stability that isn't *entirely* dictated by trying to make two different employers' expectations work for your family. .
With three kids, I'd hate to have to juggle medical & dental appointments for all three of them while constantly having to beg an employer for the time off work to take them to those appointments. Not to mention all the sick leave with three kids. Or having to coordinate vacation times with my husband's so that we could all go on a family vacation together. I've traveled quite often over the past few years and wouldn't have been able to do any of that with a full time job.
I also think what a lot of people don't realize is that many SAHPs have side jobs where they earn money working from home, so it's a myth that they don't bring any income into the household.
Yes. My life insurance is more than my husband's for good reason.
1) If he died, I would have it made. We own our home and have no debts. I am used to living frugally and know what we need. I have the skills to keep our expenses low. I am the childcare backup. Between insurance, his 401K, savings, and SS that I would claim right away for myself and the children after his death (then just for myself once they're grown), I would be set, financially. I would have both the capital to start a business and the financial stability in the background to fund our living even if it went poorly.
2) If I died, he would be hiring people constantly. He would not forego his own SS for mine. He'd need to pay out for every moment the children were off of school, including weekends and nights at a premium, because that's when he works. He knows our budget but not how to achieve it. He has a taste for food he cannot make; food I make because it is too expensive to purchase. We both prefer that I cook to going out, even if someone else is paying, because I make it better. He has no knowledge of how to strategically argue with and firmly but politely correspond with customer service reps over healthcare, home/auto insurance, or utility bills. He doesn't know how to negotiate deals with EVERYONE, from food to cars to... well, anyone. He cannot do electrical, plumbing, carpentry, or auto-repair work, which I was raised doing and have built skills additionally because I had the time to learn from our family and friends who didn't mind my kids coming along, thriftily acquire the tools, and continue learning through problems with our own home and vehicles and those of family and friends who pay me to help. He wouldn't know TO, much less HOW TO, successfully contest the increases in our assessed property value every.single.year. He doesn't know the grocery-sale cycles, or where to find $100 items for $4, or the ability to read people and decide when to stop being a hard-a$$ and be nice instead. He doesn't know when a mechanic is BSing him. By the time he learned this, if he was a full-time, SAHD, the children would be grown and gone.
It is time I have been able to use productively that will be lost instantly. I've tried to teach him but he has no interest. He doesn't understand, fully, what it involves... but he does recognize the value. In a few years, our children will be okay regardless... they're learning from me, what I do. They earn their own money and have the time and inclination to be frugal. My husband, while he does appreciate what I do and shows me often, does not have the aptitude for dealing with this sort of minutiae. These are all things that matter, in the grand scheme of financial health.
And so, I'm insured for more. My SS payment would not be much. (I do have 10+ years in paid work but my husband, especially being 6 years older, has more time invested in SS. The amounts are not actually far off, however.) And, I would not be around to get advice from... so yes, I'm insured for more. My death would have far more a financial impact.
Yes. My life insurance is more than my husband's for good reason.
1) If he died, I would have it made. We own our home and have no debts. I am used to living frugally and know what we need. I have the skills to keep our expenses low. I am the childcare backup. Between insurance, his 401K, savings, and SS that I would claim right away for myself and the children after his death (then just for myself once they're grown), I would be set, financially. I would have both the capital to start a business and the financial stability in the background to fund our living even if it went poorly.
2) If I died, he would be hiring people constantly. He would not forego his own SS for mine. He'd need to pay out for every moment the children were off of school, including weekends and nights at a premium, because that's when he works. He knows our budget but not how to achieve it. He has a taste for food he cannot make; food I make because it is too expensive to purchase. We both prefer that I cook to going out, even if someone else is paying, because I make it better. He has no knowledge of how to strategically argue with and firmly but politely correspond with customer service reps over healthcare, home/auto insurance, or utility bills. He doesn't know how to negotiate deals with EVERYONE, from food to cars to... well, anyone. He cannot do electrical, plumbing, carpentry, or auto-repair work, which I was raised doing and have built skills additionally because I had the time to learn from our family and friends who didn't mind my kids coming along, thriftily acquire the tools, and continue learning through problems with our own home and vehilces and those of family and friends who pay me to help. He doesn't know the grocery-sale cycles, or where to find $100 items for $4, or the ability to read people and decide when to stop being a hard-a$$ and be nice instead. He doesn't know when a mechanic is BSing him. By the time he learned this, if he was a full-time, SAHD, the children would be grown and gone.
It is time I have been able to use productively that will be lost instantly. I've tried to teach him but he has no interest. He doesn't understand, fully, what it involves... but he does recognize the value. In a few years, our children will be okay regardless... they're learning from me, what I do. They earn their own money and have the time and inclination to be frugal. My husband, while he does appreciate what I do and shows me often, does not have the aptitude for dealing with this sort of minutiae. These are all things that matter, in the grand scheme of financial health.
And so, I'm insured for more. My SS payment would not be much. (I do have 10+ years in paid work but my husband, especially being 6 years older, has more time invested in SS. The amounts are not actually far off, however.) And, I would not be around to get advice from... so yes, I'm insured for more. My death would have far more a financial impact.
I'm only insured for 150K but it should be more. There is no way my husband could afford to pay people to do everything I do, if I died. I've heard people say SAHPs don't need life insurance, that is the biggest financial lie out there today. SAHPs do need life insurance especially if their kids are still young.
With three kids, I'd hate to have to juggle medical & dental appointments for all three of them while constantly having to beg an employer for the time off work to take them to those appointments. Not to mention all the sick leave with three kids. Or having to coordinate vacation times with my husband's so that we could all go on a family vacation together. I've traveled quite often over the past few years and wouldn't have been able to do any of that with a full time job.
I also think what a lot of people don't realize is that many SAHPs have side jobs where they earn money working from home, so it's a myth that they don't bring any income into the household.
I just went back to work a year ago, and it definitely is more complicated, even in the best circumstances. I’m fortunate that everyone in my department is a mom, so there is no shade being thrown if someone needs to miss work for family reasons, which was really important to me when I first started looking for a job; I didn’t want to work for someone who had no concept of what it is like to juggle both worlds. It takes a lot of planning and advanced preparation: lol, I spent the long weekend for New Year’s shopping for summer camp. Summer camp!
I just went back to work a year ago, and it definitely is more complicated, even in the best circumstances. I’m fortunate that everyone in my department is a mom, so there is no shade being thrown if someone needs to miss work for family reasons, which was really important to me when I first started looking for a job; I didn’t want to work for someone who had no concept of what it is like to juggle both worlds.
It can be nice if everyone gets along with each other too. If there is office politics and drama, it makes taking off work much harder.
All I can say is I don't know how my mom did it, she had five kids, worked all day, somehow got us to tons of events and doctors appointments. But she had a huge family support network to help her out. After reading this thread it makes me want to call her and thank her.
Either way Stay at home mom, working mom, single mom, and dads alike have hard jobs. Raising kids isn't easy, each and every parent should be proud of their hard work.
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