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I agree completely. There should never have been an NHL team in Phoenix. Phoenix is a not a hockey market. The NHL put too many teams in Sun Belt markets. Houston is the only major Sun Belt city with smart businessmen who didn't bring an NHL team to that market.
What are you talking about? The NHL knows damn well the sunbelt is their single biggest opportunity to grow and they’ve been successful in many markets Orange County, Los Angleels, Dallas, Nashville, Tampa, Denver, Las Vegas so far...
The recipe is simple, show sustained success on the ice and you’ll grow a fan base over time. Move a hockey team to a non-traditional hockey market that’s constantly challenged to be competitive, let alone make a few deep runs into the playoffs and of course it’s going to struggle. Hell look at the Islanders and Devils last year, with average attendance numbers within 2000 of the Coyotes, are they bad nhl markets? Of course not, they had bad seasons.
Go back to the 06-07 season when Boston and Chicago were in the bottom 5 of nhl attendance, does that make them bad hockey markets? Sports is all about winning no matter where or who you are.
If the coyotes leave I’ll contend that NHL never gave Arizona a real shot, it’s been a franchise full of huge financial challenges that never really had a chance to build a fanbase. The move to Glendale is just more icing on top of an unsturdy cake.
My ideal pick would actually be over by Riverview in northwest Mesa, and that location was in fact considered, but taxpayers are unwilling to fund it, so that rules it and all of your picks out, so a location over by the Phoenix Rising FC stadium would be a compromise for a central location on tribal land.
Taxpayers would still end up funding the arena plus the additional road upgrades & other infrastructure improvements if the NHL stadium were to be built on the SRR. So what's the difference? Looks like tax money will be spent regardless of what happens. If the Coyotes remain in Glendale, the city is still on the hook for millions of dollars just to keep the team at Westgate. If the Coyotes move, there goes more tax money to pay for a new stadium no matter where it's built.
Personally, I would much rather have free enterprise (the team, the league, and any other major contributors) fund sports venues. But since public money will be used in some form anyway, it would make much more sense for the venue to be in a true central location like downtown where mass transit is already widely available, and there's little or no need for infrastructure upgrades.
I can't believe you would even consider a tribal location knowing how much of an advocate you are for improved mass transit. Fact of the matter is: the light rail and sufficient bus system that you strongly favor won't go anywhere near the SRR site. It would be very similar to Westgate as far as the transportation & entertainment options go ... in fact, in some ways it would be a worse location than Westgate in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312
I agree completely. There should never have been an NHL team in Phoenix. Phoenix is a not a hockey market. The NHL put too many teams in Sun Belt markets. Houston is the only major Sun Belt city with smart businessmen who didn't bring an NHL team to that market.
Agreed 100% that Westgate has been a failure ... however, I don't agree that pro hockey doesn't work in Phoenix. Vegas isn't much of a hockey market either, but look what has happened there with the Golden Knights. Their stadium is right near the Strip, not out in the middle of friggin' nowhere like Westgate is. Also, Vegas managed to land a top notch team that actually wins games & made it to the finals in their first season! NHL has a sufficient fan base in the Phoenix area, but the location of the venue and the quality of the team are lousy to say the least.
What are you talking about? The NHL knows damn well the sunbelt is their single biggest opportunity to grow and they’ve been successful in many markets Orange County, Los Angleels, Dallas, Nashville, Tampa, Denver, Las Vegas so far...
The recipe is simple, show sustained success on the ice and you’ll grow a fan base over time. Move a hockey team to a non-traditional hockey market that’s constantly challenged to be competitive, let alone make a few deep runs into the playoffs and of course it’s going to struggle. Hell look at the Islanders and Devils last year, with average attendance numbers within 2000 of the Coyotes, are they bad nhl markets? Of course not, they had bad seasons.
Go back to the 06-07 season when Boston and Chicago were in the bottom 5 of nhl attendance, does that make them bad hockey markets? Sports is all about winning no matter where or who you are.
If the coyotes leave I’ll contend that NHL never gave Arizona a real shot, it’s been a franchise full of huge financial challenges that never really had a chance to build a fanbase. The move to Glendale is just more icing on top of an unsturdy cake.
I think he was talking about the move from Canada to PHX that hurt, and its true. Canadian teams sell out all the time. For decades. Leafs, Habs, Flames... doesn't matter. They pack the stadiums. Sunbelt teams depend on the team's success, really. You mentioned the good markets, but not the bad... Panthers, ex-Thrashers, Stars, etc, all have shady attendance. And yes, some northern markets flailed a little bit, but that was mainly a boycott against the owners (ie Bill Wirtz of the Blackhawks). PHX's hockey market is semi-decent, but once again the stadium is full of opposing fans. If the Yotes could do what the Cards did, they would be better off.
I think he was talking about the move from Canada to PHX that hurt, and its true. Canadian teams sell out all the time. For decades. Leafs, Habs, Flames... doesn't matter. They pack the stadiums. Sunbelt teams depend on the team's success, really. You mentioned the good markets, but not the bad... Panthers, ex-Thrashers, Stars, etc, all have shady attendance. And yes, some northern markets flailed a little bit, but that was mainly a boycott against the owners (ie Bill Wirtz of the Blackhawks). PHX's hockey market is semi-decent, but once again the stadium is full of opposing fans. If the Yotes could do what the Cards did, they would be better off.
Actually only 3 ( Montreal, Toronto, and Winnipeg ) of the 7 Canadian teams sold out last season. Winnipeg has a very small arena. The rest of the teams that sold out are: Chicago ( highest attendance ), Detroit, Tampa Bay, Minnesota, Washington, Pittsburg, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Boston, and Nashville.
Agreed 100% that Westgate has been a failure ... however, I don't agree that pro hockey doesn't work in Phoenix. Vegas isn't much of a hockey market either, but look what has happened there with the Golden Knights. Their stadium is right near the Strip, not out in the middle of friggin' nowhere like Westgate is. Also, Vegas managed to land a top notch team that actually wins games & made it to the finals in their first season! NHL has a sufficient fan base in the Phoenix area, but the location of the venue and the quality of the team are lousy to say the least.
The NHL conducted a different kind of expansion draft this time around for Vegas, with some different rules. And there were many teams who were dumping salary by not protecting veterans and/or making trades. I tried to find an article to detail this but it's complicated. The Coyotes had no such assistance.
Point of clarity, the Coyotes were never an expansion team and were actually a decent middle of the pack team when they relocated from Winnipeg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Stradivarius
The NHL conducted a different kind of expansion draft this time around for Vegas, with some different rules. And there were many teams who were dumping salary by not protecting veterans and/or making trades. I tried to find an article to detail this but it's complicated. The Coyotes had no such assistance.
The Coyotes need to start winning and Westgate is not in the middle of nowhere!!
agree completely; winning games=fan interest
losing games will ensure no one comes no matter where you are..
And, thinking Westgate is in the "middle of no where " is laughable..If the Coyotes were a big time winning team, you could put a stadium in the middle of the desert, and the crowds would come..
agree completely; winning games=fan interest
losing games will ensure no one comes no matter where you are..
And, thinking Westgate is in the "middle of no where " is laughable..If the Coyotes were a big time winning team, you could put a stadium in the middle of the desert, and the crowds would come..
Obviously a winning team helps a lot. Obviously the more central you are, the better. But the reality is there are many more available fans in IL or MI or MN than in AZ. Anybody with a brain can figure that one out. In case people struggle to understand this, see https://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2...tate-by-state/ Kids who grew up playing hockey (or their parents who watch their kids play hockey) is a good measurement on how interested people are with hockey. Not so surprisingly, MN leads the total youth hockey with 53,000 youth players. MI at 51,000. NY at 46,000. Compare that to AZ at around 3K. TX for instance has 10,000. FL at 10,000. NV has under 1,000. I predict NHL teams coming to town over several years has an influence on these numbers. But look at Alaska without a pro team. Per capital, there are a lot of hockey players.
Some have compared Las Vegas single season success to PHX. There are differences.
* 1st, PHX has pro baseball, basketball, and football. Vegas only has pro hockey.
* The Vegas location is ideal. The proximity to the strip factually helps. It takes 20 minutes to get from Downtown PHX to Westgate. 26 minutes from ASU in Tempe, 31 minutes from Old Town Scottsdale to Westgate. For those fans, it's not ideal, but hardly "way out there" when there is MASSIVE sprawl all across the valley. i.e., Westgate is just another 20-30 minute drive. It's 20 minutes for me too. For passionate fans it's no big deal. Of course being in Westgate is a factor that keeps some people away. If the stadium was downtown (and because there is MASSIVE sprawl) it would keep some fans way who live in the West Valley and frequent the game including the north parts of the Valley, etc. But sure, all things being equal, you want to be closer to more people with higher incomes.
Obviously the team did their homework out of the gate and understood the trade-offs. I propose nearly every poster who said "it's way out there" isn't hockey fans. If they are passionate football fans, they suck it up and drive to the Cardinal game.
* After the honeymoon wears off, let's see how the new Vegas franchise does. If they add in more sports competition into the town, let's reexamine their success again. The bottom line is there are a lot less hockey fans to draw from in the southern states. So expect any downturns in winning to mean the team attendance will be much more volatile. When there is a threat for the Coyotes to leave the state, the reduced fan base will again be more sensitive with attendance as compared to the popular northern hockey states. I'm not saying southern teams cannot be successful. Rather, the volatility of their fan base will increase in the sunbelt.
I'm not a pro sports fan (I don't follow any team). I loved watching my kids play sports. I do enjoy attending pro games to see world class athletes. But for me at least, watching pro hockey live is by far, the most interesting and exciting. It's why I watched some of the Coyote games and plan to go and watch some this season via stub hub. But if the stadium was "way out in Tempe", count me out for driving an hour. That's because proximity is relevant to the individual. A stadium in Tempe for instance will reduce a couple million people on the north and west valley from attending games. To say it a different way, a hockey stadium that is located 20 minutes away from the most central location in MN or MI or IL won't matter nearly as much as it could in AZ.
I hope they make it here in AZ. But I doubt they will survive. Any city with a risk adverse brain in AZ should run for the hills before ponying up tax payers $$'s.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 08-21-2018 at 06:28 AM..
Obviously a winning team helps a lot. Obviously the more central you are, the better. But the reality is there are many more available fans in IL or MI or MN than in AZ. Anybody with a brain can figure that one out. In case people struggle to understand this, see https://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2...tate-by-state/ Kids who grew up playing hockey (or their parents who watch their kids play hockey) is a good measurement on how interested people are with hockey. Not so surprisingly, MN leads the total youth hockey with 53,000 youth players. MI at 51,000. NY at 46,000. Compare that to AZ at around 3K. TX for instance has 10,000. FL at 10,000. NV has under 1,000. I predict NHL teams coming to town over several years has an influence on these numbers. But look at Alaska without a pro team. Per capital, there are a lot of hockey players.
Some have compared Las Vegas single season success to PHX. There are differences.
* 1st, PHX has pro baseball, basketball, and football. Vegas only has pro hockey.
* The Vegas location is ideal. The proximity to the strip factually helps. It takes 20 minutes to get from Downtown PHX to Westgate. 26 minutes from ASU in Tempe, 31 minutes from Old Town Scottsdale to Westgate. For those fans, it's not ideal, but hardly "way out there" when there is MASSIVE sprawl all across the valley. i.e., Westgate is just another 20-30 minute drive. It's 20 minutes for me too. For passionate fans it's no big deal. Of course being in Westgate is a factor that keeps some people away. If the stadium was downtown (and because there is MASSIVE sprawl) it would keep some fans way who live in the West Valley and frequent the game including the north parts of the Valley, etc. But sure, all things being equal, you want to be closer to more people with higher incomes.
Obviously the team did their homework out of the gate and understood the trade-offs. I propose nearly every poster who said "it's way out there" isn't hockey fans. If they are passionate football fans, they suck it up and drive to the Cardinal game.
* After the honeymoon wears off, let's see how the new Vegas franchise does. If they add in more sports competition into the town, let's reexamine their success again. The bottom line is there are a lot less hockey fans to draw from in the southern states. So expect any downturns in winning to mean the team attendance will be much more volatile. When there is a threat for the Coyotes to leave the state, the reduced fan base will again be more sensitive with attendance as compared to the popular northern hockey states. I'm not saying southern teams cannot be successful. Rather, the volatility of their fan base will increase in the sunbelt.
I'm not a pro sports fan (I don't follow any team). I loved watching my kids play sports. I do enjoy attending pro games to see world class athletes. But for me at least, watching pro hockey live is by far, the most interesting and exciting. It's why I watched some of the Coyote games and plan to go and watch some this season via stub hub. But if the stadium was "way out in Tempe", count me out for driving an hour. That's because proximity is relevant to the individual. A stadium in Tempe for instance will reduce a couple million people on the north and west valley from attending games. To say it a different way, a hockey stadium that is located 20 minutes away from the most central location in MN or MI or IL won't matter nearly as much as it could in AZ.
I hope they make it here in AZ. But I doubt they will survive. Any city with a risk adverse brain in AZ should run for the hills before ponying up tax payers $$'s.
I take issue with your drive times as it is misleading. It takes over an hour most of the time because the games are generally on week day afternoons. Nobody wants to drive an hour to watch the Coyotes lose. It also ignores the real fan base which is in Chandler/Gilbert. I had to swear off Monday Night Football because of it. It’s way out there, sorry.
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