Everyone is Entitled to the Best Healthcare they can Afford (ethic, party)

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by pvande55

The GOP has only two positive ideas: reduce malpractice lawsuits and allow citizens to buy insurance across State lines. Let's take it a step further and allow them to buy across international borders. Negotiate an agreement with Canada allowing US citizens to buy into their system. Sure they would have to travel to Canada for treatment, but many Americans would happily put up with that inconvenience.

Sure, if they will allow such, by all means.

Remove the stupid regulations. That is, get a private planning and organization firm to audit the governments medical policies and practices with suggestions for cutting redundant programs, unneeded programs, wasteful programs and regulations. Trim the fat, make the governments part either none at all, or a truly lean "special case only" aspect. Pull out its authority over regulation, and meddling oversight, leave it to reactive policy of case by case issues concerning company practice and its violations. Make so it it can't be possible for a private company to gain benefit of a politicians influence, tie their hands, make it so they have no power, free it up to the market.

Do that, as well as opening up state lines (and even country borders if you are willing) and massively overhaul TORT law so only the valid claims have a chance and the fraudulent ones are hit over the head with a bat (example to the right direction is Texas's new TORT law that says the loser pays all expenses of the case).

If you cut it out from ALL of the medical industry and its related industries, competition will get fierce, innovation will skyrocket, many medical procedures will be easily paid out of pocket and insurance will go back to being "for high end treatment and specific case".

This however could mean more would pay out of pocket for various things, but they will be cheaper and people really are paying out of pocket these days due to extremely high deductibles.

Government is the problem, let it protect the peoples individual liberty and insure the defense of the country. We pull it out of everything, and hey, we can make congress a part time job, maybe even pull out paying them and take volunteers only. Seriously, we need to reduce government big time, it will ultimately benefit people who are struggling, but... it does have a draw back... Those getting free rides will find themselves relying only on themselves, which isn't really a bad thing.

[Visvaldis]

"Everyone is Entitled to the Best Healthcare they can Afford"
That's the way it is in the Third World.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by Nomander

So, I answer all of our damn questions, discuss each specific contention and you ignore it all and then come back changing the discussion without even attending to my responses?

Typical fallacious garbage.

Sorry, but I am not wasting my time with your devious responses.


Frigging people I swear!

Why bother? You obviously have a different interpretation of the bill of rights and the liberties that we are guaranteed and I sincerely believe if the truth was break dancing butt naked right in front of you would still stick to your own beliefs.

It's sad because we actually do share some common beliefs about what is wrong with this country.

[pvande55]

One of the reasons American medicine is "the best" meaning most expensive in the world is over testing and over-treatment. It is not just due to lawsuits but to make more profit. There was an article in Consumer Reports showing how unnecessary heart scans led to unnecessary surgery.

[donsabi]

Everyone should be entitled to basic medical care regardless of their financial status. For those that can afford more services then they should have those services. To deny medical care for the weakest of our society is morally and ethically wrong. In America we now place a price tag one everything. How long before the republicans/tea party try to legislate death camps to rid America of the old, the disabled, and those born with birth defects? Perhaps they will require the testing of babies in the womb and abort those babies if found to a financial liability.
The best healthcare they can afford - in todays society this statement is a joke. Many single mothers work two and three part time jobs to make ends meet because decent jobs have vanished in America. If one of these mothers is making $300 a week to live on but her costs are $325 a week what is affordable healthcare? If health insurance was offered at $1 a week it still would not be affordable. Should she or her child be denied care?
There are many people making plenty of money in the US and yet they want more. They want the benefits of living and earning in the US but they don't want to pay for it. They are not willing to help
those less fortunate.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by dv1033

Why bother? You obviously have a different interpretation of the bill of rights and the liberties that we are guaranteed and I sincerely believe if the truth was break dancing butt naked right in front of you would still stick to your own beliefs.

It's sad because we actually do share some common beliefs about what is wrong with this country.

Why bother? because discussion is a matter of arguing each point. If you are unwilling to argue your position in contrasting views, your point is either invalid or you are not capable of defending it. When you ignore responses to your discussion, it is simply a matter of you being unable to defend your view.

If you don't want to discuss, then don't waste my time picking and choosing your discussion because you are unwilling or incapable of dealing with the weakness in your position.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by pvande55

One of the reasons American medicine is "the best" meaning most expensive in the world is over testing and over-treatment. It is not just due to lawsuits but to make more profit. There was an article in Consumer Reports showing how unnecessary heart scans led to unnecessary surgery.

Which the government plays a HUGE part in.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by donsabi

Everyone should be entitled to basic medical care regardless of their financial status. For those that can afford more services then they should have those services. To deny medical care for the weakest of our society is morally and ethically wrong. In America we now place a price tag one everything. How long before the republicans/tea party try to legislate death camps to rid America of the old, the disabled, and those born with birth defects? Perhaps they will require the testing of babies in the womb and abort those babies if found to a financial liability.
The best healthcare they can afford - in todays society this statement is a joke. Many single mothers work two and three part time jobs to make ends meet because decent jobs have vanished in America. If one of these mothers is making $300 a week to live on but her costs are $325 a week what is affordable healthcare? If health insurance was offered at $1 a week it still would not be affordable. Should she or her child be denied care?
There are many people making plenty of money in the US and yet they want more. They want the benefits of living and earning in the US but they don't want to pay for it. They are not willing to help
those less fortunate.

How is someone entitled to that of another? We grew out of such ridiculous thinking, it was the concept that a noble or pure blood born was worth more than another and had a "right" or "entitlement" of those lessors. This is the same type of thinking that produced nobels who bed the wives of newly weds, because it was their RIGHT to such claim because they were ENTITLED to such.

The only thing a person is ENTITLED to is that by their own hand and of their own effort, everything else is just a BS claim to demand payment or obligation from another. It is the very thing that will eventually lead to those being oppressed by such claimed ENTITLEMENTS of revolting and defending against such foolish demands.

It is ridiculous, but there is a new scheme these days, use government and the greed of the masses to oppress others. It will end with a violence that few will be able to stomach. This WILL happen if it keeps up. History has shown it to be so, there is no argument.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by geeoro

So sorry to hear about your wife.
The problem with people like normander and others like him is that they spout 'PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" and "FREEDOM" as if it some kind of talisman that will scare people into anti Govt reactions. Why do these people vote in a Govt? They seem to think that if the Govt. doesn't bow to THEIR will then they have LOST their freedom.... to hell whether it impacts other peoples lives but hey THEIR FREEDOM has been encroached on.
Luckily the "scare tactics" don't work on myself and many normal thinking people on here. They think that a huge corporation dictating their health care is ... Freedom.... NO it's 'CONTROL" and they want to be in on the "Control" game because they can afford it. As soon as disaster hits them, they sing from a completely different song sheet...... Pathetic.
Every single Citizen whether rich or poor deserves health care... it is NOT a luxury item that is only accessable to those with money. Our Life is our most valuable and precious gift... yet some equate it to nothing more than a House, car or any commodity. As my Mother and Father always said to me as i grew up.... "You can always replace material things but you can NEVER replace a life". Life is cheap to these idiots who think our health should be measured by our Wealth. I have NO time for these arrogant people.
These type of People use the Word freedom as a flag. Well their view of "FREEDOM" is the freedom that you can get ONLY if you can afford it.
The poorer in the USA are NOT free but trapped in a Hell dictated to by Elite wealthy morons.
Freedom is being able to go to bed at night knowing that you and your loved ones will be "Free" to live if illness strikes.

Originally Posted by Coachgns

CUT IT OUT! Enough with this "Personal Responsibility" nonsense that you constantly spew on various subjects, from abortion to health care to housing, etc. Yes - we should each do all we can to be responsible for ourselves. But YOU cannot fathom that S**T Happens! You've poo poo'd this in other threads, and now you're doing it here, too. Everything is the (non)responsible person's fault.

My former wife was minding her own business driving in her SUV when a tractor-trailer jackknifed on the road, crushing her car's roof and splitting her skull, leaving her brain tissue on the road. What the heck did she do that was irresponsible? Drive? She was wearing her seatbelt. She was not talking on the phone. She was not speeding. She was in a supposedly SAFE car. So she had to "suffer the consequences" of her being irresponsible? She did not bring this tragedy on herself, but in your world view, nothing happens without the "victim" being at fault.

I agee. The RW has made a mockery of the term "personal responsibility". Everything bad that happens to someone is the result of isufficient "personal responsibility" according to their minions. Until it happens to them, of course. Then "that's different".

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

how is it irrational

I said get rid of all insurance (private and government)

why should SOMEONE ELSE (person or entity) pay YOUR bill

get rid of insurnace and get government out of health care and you will see the cost DROP

I work in health care, and I agree with Historian Dude. Do any of you guys know what the biggest expense of a hospital is? Personnel! If there is no way to pay the ICU nurses, the X-ray techs, etc, there will be no health care.

Originally Posted by geeoro

And i suppose you have used Govt healt care? This is how crappy it is, and this is just ONE example........
My Father was admitted into a local Hospital in London UK. He had a Cardiac Arrest at 3am and was deffibed 5 times. He was dead 10 minutes and the Doctors did not give up even though my Father was 88. They got him back and took him to a Critical care ward where specialised cardiac nurses were with him 24/7. We were told by the Doctors that because he had been dead for 10 mins they were not sure how much damage was done to his heart etc but they would NOT give up. The medical staff did everything humanly possible to help Dad. To cut a long story short... My father was seen by a top Cardiac surgeon and had major heart surgery.... Double bypass, mytral valve replacement and a pacemaker fitted. My Father came out of Hospital and even passed his London Taxi driver heart medical, passed it and is the Oldest Taxi Driver in London. He will celebrate his 90th Birthday next Month and is now in good health and has regular tests and constant monitoring by the NHS.
iF THIS IS "Crappy Care" then you are not looking at facts but just talking RUBBISH.
Not your fault really as the only info you have about a UHC is from people who have a vested interest in keeping a expensive and inneficient system of Health Care in the USA............. Sad really.

I wish I could rep you again. That's an amazing story.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

false

I can open up the yellow pages and go to ANY doctor I want..I dont need insurance

the doctor provides a service..I pay for the service rendered


the government..you have to use their doctors (if they cover the issue) and you get crappy care...

have you seen the dirty health department clinics...no freaking way.

Some doctors will not take you if you don't have any insurance. They've probably been burned by people who said they were going to pay out of pocket, then couldn't afford the care.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

from REAL LIFE

real life..I was injured in Iraq...the FDA said we can only do FUSION to backs..meanwhile disc REPLACEMENT has been done in europe for the last 25 years....I flew to europe and had the proceedure done..and bluecross covered it....the problem I talk about is OUR GOVERNMENT

real life..the GOVERNMENT(or a private insurance company) says NO to a proceedure because they DONT COVER it, or it is deemed to EXPENSIVE, or you have surpased the 'life cost'......

real life ...doctors and providers are turning medicare/medicaid away because IT DOES NOT PAY ENOUGH or very fast

OUR (the USa, not anywhere else) GOVERNMENT is the problem

you CAN NOT EQUATE UHC from other countries to ours..it just cant be equated.....our country has a bigger population than the ENTIRE european union...and we are so much bigger in land mass too (ie one of the larger EU countries --france-- is only the size of texas

hc in france,...going broke
hc in uk...major cutbacks, because of funding
hc in canada...going partially PRIVATE
hc in germany...funding issues






r

First of all, I'm sorry for your injuries. Secondly, I think it is interesting that you had to go to Europe, the "mecca" of UCHs, to get the care you needed. Don't you see the irony here?

Originally Posted by TimC2462

I'm somewhere in between both answers, but will lean a bit towards B.

But how does one address the millions of Americans who are careless about preventative health care? People do things that are detrimental to their health and end up paying the price down the road.

This is a close cousin to "personal responsibility". I do not advocate smoking, drinking, obesity and other obvious detriments to one's health, but there are a lot of people who seem to think one's health is way more under one's control than it is. Genes happen. There are some diseases/conditions that happen mostly to males. You can't even change that with a sex change operation! S*** happens, too. People get cancer. My daughter got melanoma from a mole that went bad, in an area of her body that never caught any sunlight. And so on.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

oh bull

here is how the government works

patient needs a MRI...the government (va) NOPE use an xray...first time
2. xray doesnt show much..patient needs an MRI...the governtment (va) use the xray...you have DDD
3. patient doc I am in pain,,are you sure its DDD..doc the xray shows some funny spaces, could be DDD or could be spomething else...let's ask for a MRI..the government nope lets xray (each xray is RADIATING the person btw)...again funny spacing...must be DDD
4. same
5. same
6. same
7. same
8 same

8 times with the VA...its DDD(degrnerative disc desease)


got to the doctor and PAY FOR THE MRI out of pocket...and we find out its... one CRUSHED disc, and 2 ruptured discs....now choices...the government FUSION and still have pain, andd limited movement...or non-government and about to get a multi level disc replacement (L5/s1 and L5/L4)


that is reaking governmnet care...crappy care....I know because the patient at the VA was ME

Patient (child) has private insurance. Patient has trampoline accident, has head injury. Pvt. ins. wants a prior authorization (high school drop-out that works for them giving approval in advance) before procedure is done. Coming between doctor and patient. Doctor says, "do it and I'll fight with them later". Now, not every doc will go that extra mile. Some will just say, "Sorry, your ins. doesn't cover this. We can't do it". I did not make up this situation; it actually happened at the pediatric practice where I work.

[workingclasshero]

real life..I was injured in Iraq...the FDA said we can only do FUSION to backs..meanwhile disc REPLACEMENT has been done in europe for the last 25 years....I flew to europe and had the proceedure done..and bluecross covered it....the problem I talk about is OUR GOVERNMENT

patient needs a MRI...the government (va) NOPE use an xray...first time
2. xray doesnt show much..patient needs an MRI...the governtment (va) use the xray...you have DDD
3. patient doc I am in pain,,are you sure its DDD..doc the xray shows some funny spaces, could be DDD or could be spomething else...let's ask for a MRI..the government nope lets xray (each xray is RADIATING the person btw)...again funny spacing...must be DDD
4. same
5. same
6. same
7. same
8 same

8 times with the VA...its DDD(degrnerative disc desease)


got to the doctor and PAY FOR THE MRI out of pocket...and we find out its... one CRUSHED disc, and 2 ruptured discs....now choices...the government(va) FUSION and still have pain, and limited movement(because at the time the FDA would not allow the replacement that had been being done in europe for 25 years)...or non-government(blue cross+ my own wallet) and get a multi level disc replacement (L5/s1 and L5/L4)


that is freaking governmnet care...crappy care....I know because the patient at the VA was ME

Originally Posted by Katiana

First of all, I'm sorry for your injuries. Secondly, I think it is interesting that you had to go to Europe, the "mecca" of UCHs, to get the care you needed. Don't you see the irony here?

kat,

going to europe for the disc replacement had NOTHING to due with european UHC, since it was BLUE CROSS that paid...the whole problem was OUR GOVERNENT..the FDA and VA

I am not against singlepayer.....I have always asked HOW will it be paid for (2-5 trillion a year)...and I dont want the BUREAUCRACY and crap care (go down to a department of health clinic, you will see the crap of the government)of the GOVERNMENT involved