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Do you see how government works? Regardless, of democracy or communism, you give up certain freedoms and liberties for some kind of notion of order or control. Anarchy is the only system where you would be totally free. You give up liberties/freedoms to whoever is pulling the strings, whether it is a private or public. I'm not sure what kind of privatization you are talking about so it would be hard to give good examples. Accountability is one that comes into mind. How will our legal system make these private companies accountable? Do we elect CEOs? What powers as citizens do we have against being taken advantage by those in power? That is human history in a nutshell, the conflict of those with power and those without.
And there we have it. A society where everyone is only out to what benefits them. A tough sh*t type of society. Examples? Look into history and take a look into developing countries for examples. Or just think about the consequences of not having social security or medicare. The burden of caring for the elderly, your elderly parents, uncle, brother, sister , etc. would be passed onto you and your family. Can't afford to take care of your elderly family? Tough sh*t. Have you considered what kind of consequence that would have on the psyche of America not having the ? I personally don't want to live in a tough sh*t country. See my next response.
We are neither. /shrug
Anarchy is incompatible with individual liberty. It is a might makes right system, just like the various "isms" out there that use a majority opinion to oppress.
Since the nation was founded on the concept of individual liberty above all, then as long as ones actions never infringe on another, it is keeping with its purpose.
What I was getting at with asking for an example is how you perceive infringement to be. Some rationalize it to be a company not giving a fair deal, but that has nothing to do with it. In any example you give, as long as the individual is still free to refuse the service, start up their own competing business if they choose, etc... then they are not being infringed on. Infringement is not having a choice, such as having a socialized tax to which you can not refuse to pay as you will be put in jail and fined for not doing so. That is an infringement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033
Well I take much comfort in knowing that my vote and your vote will negate each other in an indirect way. I choose to to advocate a society and government that helps those in need. Is how our government currently run and constructed good? Hell no, but what you are advocating is selfishness to the extreme.
And what you advocate will eventually fall under its own weight. We are already in that system and all of the corruption, the problems, etc... that you see, are from those "isms".
I am not worried about your vote (this is an issue about concepts of liberty, not slick politicians who all are fraudulent), I am worried about what society is going to sell out for and who is going to be left holding the bill. It won't be you and I, we will be dead before it reaches the violently oppressive stages.
Our government was not constructed and ran the way it is today. Many of those changes of severe violation began in the late 30's and we are slowly going down that path of a government that the people serve. There is no respect for the individual when one constantly refers to the "whole". This how stepping on individuals is justified. They call it "sacrifice" and this is why individuals suffered massive atrocities in various systems histories that espoused such.
I don't know about you, but I will not be a sacrifice chosen by those promoting good intentions for the sake of a "whole" which is non-existent. The only true manner of protecting EVERYONE is to respect the liberty of the individual. Do that and the "whole" takes care of itself.
I just want to point out that altruism is an important component in human evolution, seen as we are social animals. Seems to be lost on some here.
You seem to be confusing altruism (the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others) and socialism (a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole). Altruism is an individual deciding for themselves to be charitible to other people and give to them to help them. Socialism is when the government forces you to give your money to the government so that THEY can decide how to use your money and who "needs" it most.
I think so far, everyone on this thread who has said they didn't agree with the government/universal health care has spoken ad nauseum about charities, including charities that they themselves give to. That is true altruism. What those advocating the universal/government style healthcare have been talking about is socialism. There is NOTHING altruistic about socialism!
Just because I would not want the government being in control of everyone's health insurance, and I don't want taxes raised to allow government to take from those who have to give to those who have not. Does NOT mean that I would not and do not give of my own free will. I do, often, even when I don't have much to give. So do MOST people who I know who are "conservatives" or "republicans". They want the choice of who to give to, and not be told by the government who they CAN or SHOULD give to.
I have a disorder and the most prominent symptoms are bone pain and extreme fatigue. I have been working my buns off just to keep my head above water, and it's a constant struggle. I don't receive charity and I thank my lucky stars that I have decent insurance, but not everyone is able to make it through college while holding a full time job and at the same time deal with the requirement of sleeping 12+ hours a day and excruciating bone pain that not even narcotic pain killers can help. I guess since I've been through all that I understand the need for quality health care and also understand that there are always going to be those that need more help than others. I'm guessing you've been healthy most of your life? I do hope your child or close family member never gets afflicted with a disorder like mine... although, I'm sure you've saved up the spare $200,000 a year the medication would cost.
As far as the wealthy and unfortunately a majority of Republicans are concerned you are 'collateral damage" that should be ignored in their never ending quest to keep their Elitist position in the health care stakes.
If I come to your house and take your money because I need it to help my friend, is that bad? What if you refuse and I tell you that I will destroy your life, home, job, etc.. if you do not give me the money? Am I a criminal? Or am I savior out helping those in need?
Taxes are the same thing. They are a civilized way of putting a gun to someones head and telling them you will destroy their entire life if they refuse to pay.
That isn't helping, its out right criminal, regardless of what you may intend to do with that money.
So by believing that taxes are extortion, and that paying taxes is a loss of liberty, I can only presume that in your view no one should ever drive on a public road, for example? All the roads you drive on are private?
You can never use the services of the police or fire or have your country protected by a military or a coast guard? Have you hired a private police force and fire department to protect your home, and of course, you had to have given them prior permission to drive on your private road.
By the way - how dod you pay for your house that is being protected? How did you pay for the car that you are driving on the private road? Sis you use gold, or did you use currency? With your view, you must have used gold, or maybe you merely bartered services? Clearly you could not have used any form of government printed currency.
These scenarios, of course, are absurd. But they are only logical conclusion that can be drawn if one accepts the premise that taxes are extortion.
You seem to be confusing altruism (the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others) and socialism (a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole). Altruism is an individual deciding for themselves to be charitible to other people and give to them to help them. Socialism is when the government forces you to give your money to the government so that THEY can decide how to use your money and who "needs" it most. Unfortunately you do NOT have the faintest idea as to what Socialism is or how it works. NO one in a socialist country is forced to give their money by the Govt...... The citizens vote the Govt in to do a specific job... run the Country for the Benefit of ALL its Citizens. The Citizens in a Socialist Country like, for example, the UK pay taxes...just like American Citizens do and do not mind in the slightest that their taxes are used to benefit other Citizens and themselves..... they are no more forced to "give" money than Americans are forced to give money, with one HUGE exception.... Brits want to pay tax for the benefit of all..... right wing nuts here in the USA don't mind paying taxes as long as it just benefits themselves and NOT poorer Citizens. America is already a Socialist Country but this only extends to the Wealthy with Govt. fundings and bailouts and tax exemptions.
I think so far, everyone on this thread who has said they didn't agree with the government/universal health care has spoken ad nauseum about charities, including charities that they themselves give to. That is true altruism. What those advocating the universal/government style healthcare have been talking about is socialism. There is NOTHING altruistic about socialism! Nothing Altruistic about giving to charities for tax relief or even any kind return. Altruism is when you give without any kind of benefit from your giving. Altruism is really virtually impossible but Socialism is far far closer to it than Capitalistic greed.
Just because I would not want the government being in control of everyone's health insurance, and I don't want taxes raised to allow government to take from those who have to give to those who have not. Does NOT mean that I would not and do not give of my own free will. I do, often, even when I don't have much to give. So do MOST people who I know who are "conservatives" or "republicans". They want the choice of who to give to, and not be told by the government who they CAN or SHOULD give to.
So you have a choice when you pay your tax? You have a choice when you pay tax on goods bought etc etc...... NO you don't.
Socialism is now the "catchphrase" for anyone who thinks that Health Care is a luxury item and is their "property". I would have thought that the mcCarthyism which destroyed a lot of lives, had died in America many years ago..."reds under your bed" is now "Socialism is Evil" B/S.
You don't care about your fellow Americans just your Bank Balance.... Very Altruistic.... as long as you don't understand what Altruism means!!!!!!
I'd see a Doctor if i was you about those spasmodic boughts of laughter....... If you can afford one...... Otherwise you could do what millions of Americans do when they need a Doctor...... Suffer!
So by believing that taxes are extortion, and that paying taxes is a loss of liberty, I can only presume that in your view no one should ever drive on a public road, for example? All the roads you drive on are private?
You can never use the services of the police or fire or have your country protected by a military or a coast guard? Have you hired a private police force and fire department to protect your home, and of course, you had to have given them prior permission to drive on your private road.
These scenarios, of course, are absurd. But they are only logical conclusion that can be drawn if one accepts the premise that taxes are extortion.[/quote]
Go back and read my posts, I have already answered your considerations.
Taxes, when not agreed upon are extortion. Society doesn't get the right to dictate to the individual because they all got together and think something might be good for everyone.
If the person uses the services, then charge them, if they do not... well.. it is theft.. period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgns
By the way - how dod you pay for your house that is being protected? How did you pay for the car that you are driving on the private road? Sis you use gold, or did you use currency? With your view, you must have used gold, or maybe you merely bartered services? Clearly you could not have used any form of government printed currency.
I didn't agree upon the currency, remember, they made their own and the confiscated gold during the process. I was forced into a system by people who thought to control how I spend, what I use to trade. None of those things are valid actions by the government. Surely you can read numerous objections about the FED can you not? Or are you trying to claim because I was FORCED to use the system to survive, I am accepting of it?
That is like saying because I beat you down and forced you to say "master" to get a drink of water, that you were supportive of my actions. Seriously, that is absurd!
I heard that the Republican party has asked Abba if they can replace the American National Amthem with their song.... "Money Money Money" if they win the next Election..........LMAO.
They would if they could.
I just want to point out that altruism is an important component in human evolution, seen as we are social animals. Seems to be lost on some here.
Altruism has nothing to do with this discussion.
When I donate money to the charities of my own choosing, that's altruism. When the government hits me with a fine for not buying insurance, that's using the force of law to dictate that I subsidize the health care of someone else. There's a big difference.
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