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I agree 100%. Now understand, if one took that position to an unhealthy extreme, then African-Americans would encounter difficulty getting a decent bite to eat & other such udder nonsense. That an environment was created where they could eat & not be subject to harassment, ostracizing & discrimination, that such was done away with was a GOOD thing.
HOWEVER, to me this is different. First, gay activities are a CHOICE. Even if, and that's an IF, gays are "born that way," so what--I was born not potty-trained. Does that mean I should still be peeing in my pants at 44 years of age? I was born eating baby cereal & eating spaghetti with my hands, does that mean I should still be eating spaghetti with my bare hands etc? I was born (apparently) very attracted to women. Being a heterosexual, when I see an attractive woman, especially in a bikini or mini-skirt or a spaghetti-strap tank-top, every molecule in me wants so badly to perform the "horizontal limbo" until I collapse from exhaustion. It's all I can do to not just out & out stare with a long extended gaze in their direction and even make-up excuses to "bump into them" at grocery stores etc.
HOWEVER, being a married man, I know that proper behavior is that I am only allowed to be intimate with my wife, only her, period. I have to CONTROL those urges and re-direct them appropriately, and recognize that no matter how much I have an urge to mount every attractive woman I see, to do so would be morally wrong. You have to control those urges, even if I was born attracted to every woman I see.
Second, to me there's a difference in someone being denied food in an establishment where many others are eating, having to do without a basic need & feel accepted, and being sneered at and harassed, versus being "denied" a relatively frivolous fancy-extra such as as wedding cake, and to be told no in a NICE WAY and to still have plenty of other equally compelling options. It's not like this gay couple was going to have a hard time finding another place, or like this person was rude to them or ugly or that they were subjected to ostracizing anything even 5/10ths of a per cent like that of the African-Americans some 50-odd years ago.
As an example, I know of a women's only fitness gym close-by, I don't go down there throwing a fit, because (a) they are doing that so women who feel intimidated working out in front of other men who may be gazing can feel more comfortable and (b) there are a zillion other workout facilities around that will happily let me work-out in a co-ed environment surrounded by men & women, and they're equally good outfits at similar rates. If there weren't so many other options and/or if their facilities felt short or their rates were dramatically higher, I might have an argument--as it is, I don't. I do the right thing and leave them the freaking heck alone.
I don't rant & rave about such places, and neither should the gays have ranted about this one place.
LRH
There is so much wrong with your argument that it boggles the mind. You think that gays and lesbians don't control their urges as much as you? They have to make the same decisions as you do when it comes to being sexual with their chosen mates. For every promiscuous gay, there is a promiscuous straight. We all have to decide to belong--or not to belong--to one person. When a gay guy does what you do, and he wishes to form a family, he should have the same rights as you, period. Fair is fair.
The problem with the bakery refusing to do same sex weddings is that is isn't fair, and it is against a state law. I don't know if the state law will allow them the freedom to discriminate by working from home.
Yes, men made laws that go against religious beliefs so now living your faith is against the law.
Anyone with faith has their line in the sand they won't cross no matter the mandate from government.
Forcing people to accept and comply usually does not end the way they think it will.
I have my line. If government mandates I cross it then I will be breaking the law because I won't.
Believe me, there are many, many that feel that way. This will not end well. America is about to experience some real difficulty and ugliness.
Private clubs are not OPEN to the general public. That their membership is composed from a body that is also a member of the "general public" is not the deciding factor.
And its actually very easy for a private club to be deemed "not really private," so the best course of action for anyone to take is to not be a d-bag and to not discriminate. For many, however, this is a horrible burden, but it's their burden to bear, not anyone else's.
It doesn't matter! They're still doing the same thing you guys deem "discrimination". It's a matter of principle!
Like I said, most businesses are PRIVATELY OWNED.
Its not hard to just go down the street and do business with someone that will take your money.
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Most business will have to adapt and change or face going out of business. But that should be THEIR choice. It's THEIR business.
Personally, I'd have NO problem serving anyone. But I don't think there should be laws forcing everyone to do the things I would, the same way I do not want their views shoved on me.
It's not about the cake but rather the opportunity to kick some teeth in.
This business was intentionally and deliberately targeted because of their religious convictions just so the homosexual could cause trouble and “make a point” when they could have easily gone somewhere else instead. This is just wonderful. Since you will never succeed in forcing people into compliance why do you insist on the bullying?
Not true. It was simple request from a lesbian couple who were getting married. They were not targeted.
And for the record, the business seemed ready to do a cake for the Pagan solstice. So, if the reservations are religious, why were they willing to do business with pagans?
Sorry, but this argument was lost 50 years ago. You're going to have to deal with reality going forward.
I wouldn't be so sure.
The way you guys are carrying on going after everyone and suing everyone because of laws, you'll probably end up pi$$ing businesses and corporations off that will lobby for the law to be changed.
Still, at one point they b-itched about a law like a child. I'm sick and tired of small business owners acting like they are persecuted beyond belief.
The United States government is not your friend. The private sector is not your friend. I don't like certain laws. I don't like certain practices by private institutions. But here's the thing: I adapt. I either find other options, comply, or break the law and take the risk. I do not cry like a baby as the small business owners do in this country.
A most accurate and intelligent observation!
It seems to me that the bakery selectively wants to discriminate against a gay couple, but had no qualms about baking a Pagan celebration cake. Oh, and now they cry about their religious convictions as Christians?
Sheesh.
I think they were looking to pick a fight. Guess what? They lost.
This thread is a microcosm of the core problem America is experiencing today. You see bitterness in spades from both sides of every debate. Until both sides agree to work together, all we have is a competition.
But they won't come together. Everything is too black and white. People simply don't see that the Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin. The middle ground is Libertarian. The liberal media paint them out to be worse than Republicans. The Republicans simply ignore them. Why is it they never are allowed to get in on the debates? Why is it they are constantly shut out? Because THEY(reps and dems) want control and they have been playing us as fiddles for years and people simply cannot see beyond Red or Blue at this point. They have Americans so distracted that they do what they want and people just don't see it. Its a constant blame game while pushing their agenda.
I wouldn't be so sure.
The way you guys are carrying on going after everyone and suing everyone because of laws, you'll probably end up pi$$ing businesses and corporations off that will lobby for the law to be changed.
No, they won't. Because businesses actually make more money when they are inclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean71
It doesn't matter! They're still doing the same thing you guys deem "discrimination". It's a matter of principle!
To whom does it "not matter"? It matters where it counts: To the Courts and the law that has been made on the subject over the past few decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean71
Like I said, most businesses are PRIVATELY OWNED.
Its not hard to just go down the street and do business with someone that will take your money.
Once more: OWNERSHIP MODEL DOES NOT DICTATE WHETHER ITS ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE OR NOT.
The NATURE of the business is what dictates. WHO you are purporting to serve. Not whether the business is owned by a private person, or a public entity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean71
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Most business will have to adapt and change or face going out of business. But that should be THEIR choice. It's THEIR business.
Or they could just follow the law the way they have to follow any other law. Seems pretty damn easy to me. And honestly, people are still free to refuse service, just not on account of certain things. If the bakery wanted to refuse to do a cake for a Democrats club, for example, they are free to.
Society has simply made a value judgment that people with immutable characteristics (race, ethnicity, sexuality) should not be discriminated against. Oh yeah, and religion to. Even though religion is a chosen affliction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean71
Personally, I'd have NO problem serving anyone. But I don't think there should be laws forcing everyone to do the things I would, the same way I do not want their views shoved on me.
Um. Ok. Congratulations? I mean most people support anti-discrimination laws so you are of course free to believe what you want, but these laws are not new, and there is overwhelming precedent for them in this country.
In fact, some iterations go back as far as 1875! (Civil Rights Act of 1875).
No, they won't. Because businesses actually make more money when they are inclusive.
To whom does it "not matter"? It matters where it counts: To the Courts and the law that has been made on the subject over the past few decades.
Once more: OWNERSHIP MODEL DOES NOT DICTATE WHETHER ITS ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE OR NOT.
The NATURE of the business is what dictates. WHO you are purporting to serve. Not whether the business is owned by a private person, or a public entity.
Or they could just follow the law the way they have to follow any other law. Seems pretty damn easy to me. And honestly, people are still free to refuse service, just not on account of certain things. If the bakery wanted to refuse to do a cake for a Democrats club, for example, they are free to.
Society has simply made a value judgment that people with immutable characteristics (race, ethnicity, sexuality) should not be discriminated against. Oh yeah, and religion to. Even though religion is a chosen affliction.
Um. Ok. Congratulations? I mean most people support anti-discrimination laws so you are of course free to believe what you want, but these laws are not new, and there is overwhelming precedent for them in this country.
In fact, some iterations go back as far as 1875! (Civil Rights Act of 1875).
And telling a business owner how to run their business and who they WILL SERVE is discrimination and slavery.
I do support anti-discrimination laws. Thats why I don't support this law.
And telling a business owner how to run their business and who they WILL SERVE is discrimination and slavery.
It is neither. I suggest you look up the definition of slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean71
I do support anti-discrimination laws. Thats why I don't support this law.
OMG, so tired of Libertarian doublespeak.
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