Should a business be able to deny service to a customer if the request conflicts with the owner’s religious beliefs? (death, school)
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Thats a flawed argument. One of my college professors actually used your explain(well, spray painting a peace sign vs a Swastika.
" Justice is blind, not stupid. Intent matters" he said.
A gay wedding cake is not in any way equal to a Swastika. One is meant to symbolize the love 2 people have for one another, the other is a symbol meant to strike fear into the hearts of certain people in todays context.
Well of course it's not the moral equivalent. That's not really my point.
Religious freedom, which I state earlier, is a protected right. Should I ask anyone to violate their personal religious beliefs, they should have the right to refuse.
There's always a limit, as I said earlier. A doctor can't say "I think homosexuality is an abomination" and refuse treatment of a gay person in that respect. I actually don't believe any service can be entirely refused based on small details like that. However, in specific circumstances, like a gay wedding, I think a person can justly point to religious objections. This because the ground for refusing services is less rooted in the person and more so in a specific 'thing.'
An easy example I often use when talking about the bakery issue, I think a baker should be expected to sell french bread to any gay person who enters. Should that same baker be asked to bake them a wedding cake for their wedding reception, I think then they may site religious objections.
In a certain sense I'd say it is. But If we make an exception in this case for religion, what will we make an exception for next? If the Christian baker knows he has a problem with certain people then maybe he should consider another line of work. One where his chances of encountering elements of our society whom he considers distasteful aren't so great.
IMHO if you choose to do business with the public then you should treat all people equally and fairly.
Well, I do agree. You should treat all people equally and fairly.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm disagreeing that they should always be compelled to.
I understand that any position on this can make looking at other scenarios difficult. That's why a public discourse on this issue matters.
The free market never solved discrimination against blacks in the south. These religious tests by right wing religious groups are so over exaggerated, if you have a business you need to treat everyone equally.
Ah, but was that a free market?
The State clearly discriminated against minorities via codified laws/regulations as well as judicially which in turn made serving Blacks undesirable from an economic standpoint. A white owner would be a fool to serve minorities under that model because of the State's stances which were backed by force that included caging at gunpoint.
Of course many southern white business owners didn't like Blacks anyway which made the point moot.
That's the problem with involuntary 3rd party intervention that has a monopoly on law/force (government): the free market becomes tainted/artificial and you get things like we had in this example.
If a baker refuses to sell cakes to gays in a truly free market we have recourse to influence his business. You and I can refuse to sell our goods/services to him. If you're a doctor and I'm a roofer and your neighbor Bob is an electrician who also agrees with us we can exert pressure on the baker to change his policy or close down. After awhile the baker is going to need to use goods/services that he can't provide on his own. And that's where we'll get him.
If they have objections to serving specific people, it's incumbent upon them to vet that ahead of time or have it included in the contract.
So everything becomes by contract now?
What about an EMT working for a private ambulance company? How does he got contracts signed?
What about the baker who doesn't want to serve gays? Do you have to sign a contract promising you are not gay to get a cupcake? Or can the baker just refuse to sell you a cupcake because you look gay?
Yes, but only if in doing so, the owner isn't violating the customer's civil rights or discriminating against that customer if that customer is of a protected class.
Example:
Christian pizza guy, asked to make 12 pizzas that depict offensive images of Jesus in the pepperoni for two gay men who to serve at their wedding shower.
Or, is it that he doesn't want to make pizzas for a party thrown by two gay men for their wedding shower?
I mean, I cannot see why they'd want pizzas with those images for their wedding shower, but whatever.
If the reason given is not being comfortable about making pizzas that mock Jesus for religious reasons, then I see no issue with pizza guy refusing.
If the reason given is that they don't want to be involved in making pizzas for a wedding shower for two gay men, that IS a problem.
In the first case, the owner has the right not to do something that is making a mockery of their faith, and it has nothing to do with the customers being gay men holding a wedding shower.
If the pizza guy cites them being gay and holding a wedding shower as a reason to refuse service, their sexual orientation IS protected from discrimination and the pizza guy would be wrong not to make them pizzas, he could simply refuse to make pizzas that mock his faith and offer them an alternative.
I realize some people might think that making food is somehow condoning gay marriage, but that's a ridiculous leap of logic and we all know it's just an excuse to discriminate and isn't at all a religious objection. Nobody asked them to perform the ceremony or to attend it.
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CONTRACTUAL LAW WAS BROKEN BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS.
You go to the contract/resolution council to get damages or whatever you spelled out in the contract.
Contract law is logical and moral. The social contract is for collectivist fascists.
It's that simple.
So there is no such thing as contracts which are unwritten?
Let's talk real world. Said Bakery places advertisements everywhere (web site, store windows, handouts, newspapers) which say "cakes for ALL occasions".
Should they then - after promising this - decide late which occasions they serve?
The same goes for other businesses and promotion/marketing. Should a business be able to market itself as fully inclusive and "the place where everyone goes" with "100% satisfaction" and then so "ennie meanie minny moe" once a customer comes through the door?
The problem with debating this particular issue is that businesses are very different. Some engage in interstate commerce - others in health care - others in licensed business where they have agreed in one form or another to serve everyone.
Even someone like me - who believes in basic public accommodation law, would have no problem with being thrown out of an eatery for not being dressed to their (advertised) standard. Or, to be refused service due to acting out in a loud manner, etc.
But these are not discriminatory based on creed, religion, sex, age, etc. - they apply to all equally.
I could even be convinced that certain businesses under X revenue with a single location where the product is also available elsewhere....may have more rights to pick and choose their customers.
As a consultant (I was in retail for 20 years, tho, so I know my basics!)....I definitely get to pick and choose my clients. But I don't think I would be allowed to place an ad saying "No followers of Islam need apply".
So - in summary - different businesses differ! Where the "line" is will be up to the courts. Like it or not we live in a "society" and business is regulated.
What about an EMT working for a private ambulance company? How does he got contracts signed?
What about the baker who doesn't want to serve gays? Do you have to sign a contract promising you are not gay to get a cupcake? Or can the baker just refuse to sell you a cupcake because you look gay?
The open competition for your money will encourage businesses to make things as easy as possible for you the consumer.
What would happen in a stateless world would be people would form voluntary organizations to do the "heavy lifting" in terms of contracts and the such.
This is why we have lawyers now. Only they are hired to fight the State on behalf of owners and consumers alike.
As a small business co-owner that's what my lawyer currently does for me: protects me from the State. And the reason why he is needed is because I'm subject to thousands of tenets (laws) that I never agreed to. I have to make sure I don't violate them because the man with a gun will show up to fine or cage me.
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