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Old 06-08-2018, 09:57 PM
 
17,597 posts, read 13,378,017 times
Reputation: 33056

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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilcart View Post
what? senile?


sounds to me like you just hate the idea because it is coming from the left.


Is it that you think long term healthcare security is a bad thing, or is it that you have misunderstood the entire concept?
I would hate the idea if coming from the right..It doesn't work

I fully understand the concept after almost 60 years in health care management
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:01 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,147,065 times
Reputation: 13661
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
This shouldn't be about the haves and have nots. It should be about making healthcare equally available and affordable for everyone.
I'd much rather pay an extra $300 a month in taxes than $700 a month in insurance premiums with a $5000 deductible but call me crazy.
Not to mention the peace of mind. In my other country of origin, we can simply waltz into a walk-in clinic or the ER and be seen for just about anything, and go home without having to bite our nails for weeks wondering what the random bill that comes in the mail will be, and whether insurance feels like covering much/any of it.

Nope. Just go home after you're treated. Done and over with.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:04 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,147,065 times
Reputation: 13661
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmove View Post
And who will be paying for it?
Ideally, everyone via VAT.

Of course, before single payer is implemented, it's necessary to get to the bottom of WHY healthcare in the US is so absurdly expensive to begin with.

The way it currently is, there's not enough money in global circulation to afford single payer in the US.

But once costs are brought at least somewhat under control, single payer becomes much more feasible.

It's like decluttering a room first prior to actually decorating it nicely.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:07 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,147,065 times
Reputation: 13661
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
I was referring to terminally ill people. End of life costs are outrageous (and, I am an old guy)
We need to let people choose to end their lives or pay others willing to humanely end their lives for them.

Many, MANY people would love that option, and it'd save a bundle.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:43 PM
 
33,315 posts, read 12,551,747 times
Reputation: 14946
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
Exactly. The non-working people are already paid for. Working people can simply contribute to Medicare that ensures full medical coverage rather than have to deal with paying far more for the headaches and stress of for-profit unpredictable insurance companies.
How so ?

A number of people who aren't working don't qualify for Medicaid.
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Old 06-09-2018, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,180,106 times
Reputation: 21743
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
What's wrong with Medicare for all?
As the Left-Wing Urban Institute noted:

In total, federal spending would increase by about $2.5 trillion (257.6 percent) in 2017. Federal expenditures would increase by about $32.0 trillion (232.7 percent) between 2017 and 2026.

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/...-Care-Plan.pdf

If you want to do something positive, then try implementing Free Market Reforms.

First, have the federal government withhold Medicaid funding from States that refuse to pursue anti-trust legislation against hospital cartels, and repeal or rescind the State legislation that created the hospital monopolies and cartels that illegally collude to illegally fix prices above market rates.

So you'd pay $2,900 for child-birth instead of $9,200 and $13,000 for heart-bypass surgery, instead of $29,000 to $42,000. Those are the market rates compared to the monopoly cartel rates charged by hospitals in my area. In your area, the market rate may be higher or lower depending on the Cost-of-Living in your area compared to mine.

Note that when the American Hospital Association lobbied the State legislatures in the late 1930s and early 1940s to enact legislation creating those monopolies and cartels, they argued that the free care they would provide to the indigent and low-income families would off-set the economic harm resulting from monopolies.

And now, they practically refuse to provide that free care, then complain bitterly and expect tax-payers to foot the bill when the do.

Once you do that, you need to eliminate hospitals.

Of all things, it was the Communist Bloc that recognized the grotesque inefficiency and ineffectiveness of the Hospital Model and applied a corollary of Capitalist Theory: Diversification & Specialization.

By deconstructing hospitals into smaller more efficient and effect specialized clinics and polyclinics, they saved $Billions.

After West Germany and East Germany united, the German Minister of Health noted how efficient the system in former East Germany was, and how much less it cost to operate. He then started shifting away from the Hospital Model in the former West Germany to the system used in the former East Germany and saved $Billions, averting a financial crisis in the healthcare system.

You don't have "In-Network/Out-of-Network" auto repair or body-shops for your auto insurance, and you don't have "In-Network/Out-of-Network" roofers and plumbers for your home-owner's insurance, yet you have "In-Network/Out-of-Network" health insurance.

Why is that?

That's because the American Hospital Association lobbied all the State legislatures to enact laws permitting it.

The State legislatures regulate insurance companies, not the federal government, so it has to be the State legislatures who repeal and rescind such laws, so that you have a Free Market.

And, before some ignoramus interjects the specious and facetious suggestion that you can't shop for hospitals while you're having a heart attack, consider that most intelligent people will already have selected a hospital, and even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter, since hospitals would now be charging competitive market rates, instead of arbitrarily price-gouging patients.

The State legislatures can also repeal or rescind the myriad pieces of legislation that drive up the cost of health insurance by requiring people to purchase coverage they neither need nor want. The vast majority of people over 40 don't need pregnancy coverage, yet they're forced to pay for it.

In a Free Market, you buy only what you need and not what you don't need. That will reduce costs measurably.

People used to profit off their life insurance when it was tied to their catastrophic health insurance, until the American Hospital Association lobbied Congress to change the IRS tax code in 1954 to prevent that. That law needs to be repealed as well.

It would help if the federal government would penalize employers for providing group health insurance. That would allow people to choose their own healthcare plans, while still allowing their employers to pay all or part of the cost as part of their benefits, which is how it worked up until 1946. For those who claim larger pools lower costs, then an extremely large pool within a State would reduce costs more than smaller employer pools.

Once you've shifted to a Free Market and allowed it to operate without interference, then you can determine where problems exist and move to resolve them.

That's much less costly than over-laying some half-baked federally run universal plan on a broken system.
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Old 06-09-2018, 03:35 AM
 
4,563 posts, read 4,106,004 times
Reputation: 2296
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
I would hate the idea if coming from the right..It doesn't work

I fully understand the concept after almost 60 years in health care management
Sounds like you have a self fulfilling mentality.

It seems to work by most measures, life expectancy, outcomes, infant mortality and cost. We spend more in this country and don't live as long.



I am a healthcare provider in primary care. I have lost patients to cancer because they ignored a problem and they didn't have insurance and couldn't pay. They ignored it and the cancer spread.

There is no reason it can't work. Evaluate other countries. See who had the best system and mimic it. Remove for profit management and keep the relationship between patient and provider not patient provider both asking insurance's permission for everything.

How Bad Is U.S. Health Care? Among High-Income Nations, It
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:08 AM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,969,746 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
the simple fact is that a 100% coverage singlepayer will cost IN CARE about 6 trillion dollars to cover 330 million people
That's 33% of GDP. Every single payer system around the world cost between 8-12% of GDP. America's current for-profit system cost 18% of GDP.

So there you have it. Every single country in the world have a system that cost them about half of what America's current system cost. And you're saying that if we do what other countries do, it would cost us three times as much as the most costly single payer system in the world out there. How do you come up with this propaganda?
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:09 AM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,969,746 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
As the Left-Wing Urban Institute noted:
Urban Institute is funded by for-profit health care corporations. They are not left-wing just because Wall Street democrats like them. They are swimming in cash from the richest and most powerful special interests in the country.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:15 AM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,969,746 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Depends on cost of living in your area but yeah, when there are tons of illegals in the area they'll work cheaper and it will keep those wages down.

I find it pathetic that some people decry the rejection of science for a topic like global warming and then turn around and violate Economics 101 and claim that 6 million illegal laborers don't suppress blue collar wages.

I'm a global warming believer and frankly we need a new term for these people...maybe "Economics deniers"?
Median pay for the typical worker is flat for the past 20 years. Its not because of illegals doing drudgery jobs. Its a red herring. The reason median pay is flat is because the ruling capital can get away with it as labor unions are destroyed and workers are frightened. More insecure workers with less labor rights and skyrocketing student debt and health care costs give a tremendous advantage to the corporation.
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