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Gorby didn't. He simply directed the Soviet troops not to interfere during October 1989. And not that he had much choice; Hungary opened both it's border with free-world Austria, and migrations through Warsaw Pact Czechoslovakia to Hungary (travel was allowed within the Warsaw Pact) through Austria and thence to West Germany turned into a flood. Gorbachev made a virtue of necessity, ratifying what was already happening.
Ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Arab countries was utterly wrong. It was a tragedy. Is that what you were fishing for?
It still doesn't excuse ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. That's a different event.
Just because you get mugged doesn't give you a license to go an mug someone else, but that's the moral equivalence you're assigning here.
You don't seem to get what I am saying. I'm trying to give you the Jewish perspective.
Jews will fight, die, and give all their money to make sure there is always a Jewish state. They will make sure they always have an army that will come to their defense, and a country of refuge, should the world go genocidal again. Jews will never rely on the benevolence of others when their lives are at stake again. It worked out terribly for them the last time they did that. Jews will only trust themselves to come to their own defense.
Like I said, "Never again" means Never-F'ing-Again!
Israel will use every resource at it's disposal to prevent it's fall. Considering the resources at their disposal, if the world ever does see Israel fall, then it means it was at the cost of millions of lives on both sides. And just because Israel has chosen not to wipe out the Palestinians, please don't forget that they have the ability to, any time they want. Their survival is at stake, so when push really comes to shove, they will no longer give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about their methods.
With that in mind, giving the Palestinians citizenship in Israel is not an option. It will never be an option. The people here that are suggesting it, would do best to erase it from their mind, rather than continue hoping for something that is completely outside of the realm of possibility.
That leaves 2 viable options. A 2 state solution, or the forced removal of the Palestinians.
Rather than focus on our differences, why not focus on our similarities. We are both hoping for the former rather than the latter.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-10-2021 at 06:26 AM..
Jews have been expelled from country, after country, after country for more than 2,000 years. And we aren’t just talking about Arab countries in the Middle East, who stole the land and property of nearly 1 million Jews. Jews have been expelled from Spain (everyone knows about that one), and England (most know about that one), but also France....Hungary.....Lithuania.....Portugal....Au stria....from Southern Italy.....from Berne, Switzerland....from Haiti..
And in America, too. In 1862, Grant expelled Jews from Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky.....
Let’s move into the 20th century. Germany conducted the ultimate “expulsion,” but Jews were expelled from Rome....from Florence.....from Pisa.....from Verona. And let’s not forget the Russian pogroms, so despicable against Jews that more than 2 million were forced to flee.
And then of course we have the Muslims in Arab and North African countries, effectively obliterating Jewish communities throughout the region and reducing the Jewish population from around 900,000 to less than 8,000 today (while pocketing the Jews’ property and homes).
And now....after thousands of years of persecution, expulsions, and mass murder....the Jews are faced with a hostile group of Arabs, led by a terrorist organization that seeks Israel’s destruction, and NOW we have liberals saying, as far as the potential for Israel to expel these hostile antisemites, that “two wrongs don’t make a right.”!?
Really?
What is the reason jews were expelled from more than a hundred countries? This is unprecedented in history. Just asking.
No. The UK determined the land, which they controlled, would be used to establish the independent sovereign nation of Israel. The Balfour Declaration.
As "Palestine" (no such independent sovereign nation exists) did not then or ever own or control that land, so-called Palestinians have no say in the matter.
I am sure the Zionists did everything they could including making payoffs, and offers of kickbacks to any politicians that would back them.
The part that InformedConsent left out was Britain also made promises to the Arabs for an independent state. Remember the whole mandate for Palestine included what is now Jordan. When Jordan was split off in the 1920's is when Britain made god on its promises to the Arabs made during WWI.
Not a gas chamber, but an open air concentration camp that gets pot shotted by Israeli snipers, and get bombed. Still very bad.
Here's the irony. The 'Palestinians' were told by the Arab league to leave their homes temporarily while the Arab league 'pushed the Jews into the sea'. The Arab league created temporary 'camps' for them. After the Arab league failed to kill all the Jews, they kept the 'Palestinians' in those camps. They did. At the same time, more Jews than Arabs were booted out of neighboring Arab countries.
The Arabs kept their refugee Arab fellows in camps, Israel absorbed their refugee Jews. And the irony is that the Arabs have twisted and denied certain parts of history to keep the 'Palestinians' thinking it is all edthe Jews fault, which of course spawns the 'martyr' syndrome, which is why Israel sometimes retaliates against some in the camps. Which, of course, helps the Arabs keep fomenting the hatred.
You might want to look into the Black September revolts. Jordan ()and Egypt) has a lot more dislike for the 'Palestinians' than the Israelis do.
What is the reason jews were expelled from more than a hundred countries? This is unprecedented in history. Just asking.
Jealousy and hatred, which are often the foundation of antisemitism. Many see success in the Jewish communities and think that it is somehow ill-gotten or are just jealous that they are not as successful and go on from there. There is a reason why antisemitic tropes like "blood sucker," the "Jews control the media" or have "too much power," and referring to Jews as "Rothschilds" are a thing.
From where I stand, Jews have been successful many times for a whole host of reasons. Hard work, community cohesion, etc. But, rather than be jealous or hateful about their success, I look for ways to emulate what they are doing right.
Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 06-10-2021 at 06:49 AM..
You don't seem to get what I am saying. I'm trying to give you the Jewish perspective.
Jews will fight, die, and give all their money to make sure there is always a Jewish state. They will make sure they always have an army that will come to their defense, and a country of refuge, should the world go genocidal again. Jews will never rely on the benevolence of others when their lives are at stake again. It worked out terribly for them the last time they did that. Jews will only trust themselves to come to their own defense.
Like I said, "Never again" means Never-F'ing-Again!
Israel will use every resource at it's disposal to prevent it's fall. Considering the resources at their disposal, if the world ever does see Israel fall, then it means it was at the cost of millions of lives on both sides. And just because Israel has chosen not to wipe out the Palestinians, please don't forget that they have the ability to, any time they want. Their survival is at stake, so when push really comes to shove, they will no longer give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about their methods.
With that in mind, giving the Palestinians citizenship in Israel is not an option. It will never be an option. The people here that are suggesting it, would do best to erase it from their mind, rather than continue hoping for something that is completely outside of the realm of possibility.
That leaves 2 viable options. A 2 state solution, or the forced removal of the Palestinians.
Rather than focus on our differences, why not focus on our similarities. We are both hoping for the former rather than the latter.
With that in mind, giving the Palestinians citizenship in Israel is not an option. It will never be an option. The people here that are suggesting it, would do best to erase it from their mind, rather than continue hoping for something that is completely outside of the realm of possibility.
That leaves 2 viable options. A 2 state solution, or the forced removal of the Palestinians.
...
Very honest assessment.
I agree with you.
The reasoning is pretty obvious, and one can basically see that in your post: admitting so many non-Jewish people into the citizenry could eventually open up a situation where most of the citizens are non-Jewish. This is especially likely because of the low birth rate among Jewish Israelis and a higher birth rate among Palestinians.
Ethnic Cleansing is not a moral option, although that seems to be in fact what is happening in slo-mo right before our eyes.
I know Palestinian Christians (yes, there is such a thing, there used to be a lot of them) who migrated to the USA, and the general consensus is Israeli policies drove them to leave for happier places. The Israeli government in practice makes it very hard for Palestinians and those who could get out very often do so.
The only practical solution is a two state outcome, Israel can have it's own Lesotho type rump state to corral the non-Jews in. But there is STILL a strong political element within Israel which opposes that and this is why the Jewish Israeli settlements continue in the West Bank, with government abetting. That faction simply does not want a little rump state of non-Jews in the highlands, they want the Palestinians gone and forgotten. Horrible to contemplate really.
The reasoning is pretty obvious, and one can basically see that in your post: admitting so many non-Jewish people into the citizenry could eventually open up a situation where most of the citizens are non-Jewish. This is especially likely because of the low birth rate among Jewish Israelis and a higher birth rate among Palestinians.
Ethnic Cleansing is not a moral option, although that seems to be in fact what is happening in slo-mo right before our eyes.
I know Palestinian Christians (yes, there is such a thing, there used to be a lot of them) who migrated to the USA, and the general consensus is Israeli policies drove them to leave for happier places. The Israeli government in practice makes it very hard for Palestinians and those who could get out very often do so.
The only practical solution is a two state outcome, Israel can have it's own Lesotho type rump state to corral the non-Jews in. But there is STILL a strong political element within Israel which opposes that and this is why the Jewish Israeli settlements continue in the West Bank, with government abetting. That faction simply does not want a little rump state of non-Jews in the highlands, they want the Palestinians gone and forgotten. Horrible to contemplate really.
Israel tried that. The antisemitic Arabs turned it down. Hamas wants Israel run into the sea completely. It is the Hamas-led Arabs that want the Jew gone and forgotten. Horrible to contemplate, really.
And your comment about “Israel corralling non-Jews into a rump state” really reveals your targeted hostility toward the Jewish State. What Arabs, and Europeans, have done to Jews is far, far worse.
(The more I read about how brainwashed liberals are against Israel, the more I increase my donations to help support her. I’m planning to make a substantial one in a couple of weeks, in honor of my father’s 2nd yartzheit.)
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