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Again, Palestinians would be fine if they stopped voting for terrorist organizations like Hamas--that don't believe in Israel's right to exist--to lead them. As I have written before, if the Palestinians put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel put down its weapons, it would be wiped off the face of the Earth. I support Israel's right to defend itself against hateful individuals and group who seek its destruction.
Hamas only is in the Gaza strip as an elected entity. Why don't you know that? The Palestinians did not start the violence, Israel did back in 1948 when the settler came and removed the Palestinians. Fact. Even if you don't like it.
There's really no meaning to Palestinian citizenship as it's just a dead culture having spend most of the last 3,500 years being conquered by some empire or another, be in the Byzantine, Ottoman, Babylonian, Macedonian, British, Egyptian, Syrian, Persian or what have you. It's the same same dead culture and dead religion for both Israel and Palestine. Ancestry goes back to the Canaan in the bronze age which was similar to the Greek city states. The Canaan culture was much short lived though. It formed much later than the Greek culture and was conquered much earlier. Greece retained enough of its cultural identity to eventually overthrow its succession of conquering empires and gain back independence. The Canaan though, they really don't. Even when the British empire handed it back to them, the difference between the various factions of the Canaan (the modern day Israelis and Palestinians) have really nothing in common anymore. Plus you have the external threats from other larger countries that all view the area as part of their domain since at one time or another Egypt, Syria, Jordan all held what is now Israel/Palestine.
Palestinian "culture" is an evolving fabrication itself, let alone any concept of Palestinian citizenship which is just entirely an artificial creation from whole cloth. You might as well be talking about the Iroquois Nation overthrowing the United States government when you talk about Palestinian citizenship. I guess it's not really any fault of the Iroquois either that they got conquered and their culture is much less dead than the Canaan culture is. Even among itself "Palestine" is composed of irreconcilable factions with currently Hamas and Fatah existing in a state of hostility with one another. Were it not for have a common foe they're more interested in attacking then each other, they'd be fighting amongst themselves over which faction ruled over Palestine, which is really rather silly as without Israel being propped up by the Western world "Palestine" would be wiped off the map in no time and gobbled up by Egypt, Syria, or Jordan anyway.
What do you think was happening to Jews at the same time? Moving around living a nomadic existence, not knowing whether they still be welcome where they are. Not much better.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
No. The UK determined the land, which they controlled, would be used to establish the independent sovereign nation of Israel. The Balfour Declaration.
As "Palestine" (no such independent sovereign nation exists) did not then or ever own or control that land, so-called Palestinians have no say in the matter.
I am sure the Zionists did everything they could including making payoffs, and offers of kickbacks to any politicians that would back them.
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Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
Really? As vicious? Where are the Nakba gas chambers located?
Lets put things back in perspective, please.
Not a gas chamber, but an open air concentration camp that gets pot shotted by Israeli snipers, and get bombed. Still very bad.
Other than being a blatant pro-Israel group, there is at least one obvious lie in the histrionics by this speaker. Palestinian refugees are refugees because of Israel's actions, not because of Arab nations.
What is wrong with there being a "blatant pro-Israel group" to match the dozen of governmentally funded anti-Israel groups. UNWRA is a blatant example. The point of what this group is saying is unassailable; Israel willingly absorbs refugees created by Arab government actions or acquiescence in pogroms. Israel even absorbs groups such as the Ethiopian emigres whose lineage isn't 100% clear (though they likely are legitimately Jewish). They are not kept in camps on the borders of Arab county to surreptitiously enter those countries to knife people, commit suicide bombings or car rammings.So the question, Normstad, is "where are (the Arab countries') Jews?
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Originally Posted by normstad
BTW, I do have concerns that the UN Human Rights group has way too many members whose nations do not have human rights. I see that hypocrisy also.
It's nice that you quietly make that point. But why are we publicly funding hate groups, even if they are fronted by the label "UN"?
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Originally Posted by Westerner92
Yeah, the world kinda froze in place during the 50s because we all learned how terrible genocide and/or population exchanges are. You’re not gonna get anywhere trying to play the game of what or who started the Six Day War. Also, ya gotta keep that oil flowing from the Arab states unless you want the West’s economy to collapse. Oh, and the whole atomic bomb thing (that, true to form, Israel has but isn’t transparent about it). So sorry Israel was late to the genocide/ethnic cleansing game.
By what logic is that "freeze" for a token amount of time permanent? Because it's to Israel's disadvantage?
Actually the world did not freeze at all during that period. The map of 1939 shows most of the world blanketed by British, French, Netherlands and to a lesser extent German colonies. The world of, say, 1962 shows that colonial empire drastically shrunken, to a few dots in Asia such as Hong Kong, Macao Rhodesia, South-West Africa and a few that escape my memory. Some areas such as the British West Indies were rapidly transitioning to "independence" so I am not including those areas. The "liberation" of places such as Algeria produced its own refugees, some of them heading for Israel.
The "game" of who started that war is a legitimate question. The implosion of the colonial empires triggered further "population exchanges" and genocides that were kept very quiet because the killers were not "white." Non-exclusive examples are Burundi-Rwanda (Hutus and Tutsis), Jammu-Kashmir, Democratic Kampuchea, and the king of all of them, Nigeria-Biafra. As for oil, that embargo cleared quickly when the world oil prices for exploded from under $3 to $12, and then from around $14 (in 1978) to over $40, and U.S. wage and price controls evaporated. No, there was no "Kumbaya" experience when we "all learned how terrible genocide and/or population exchanges are." The Arab countries made a strategic mistake and a very serious one when they decided to attack Israel in 1967.
Not a gas chamber, but an open air concentration camp that gets pot shotted by Israeli snipers, and get bombed. Still very bad.
Not a concentration camp. Surely, they have complete freedom of movement, don't they? They share a border with their brethren in Egypt, so surely they allow the Palestinians in and out, no?
...Oh. Wait.
So Egypt is keeping them locked up in there? Oh no. Thats not right.
But not Israel's problem. Gaza isn't part of their country, and thy aren't even occupying Gaza. The people of Gaza are hostile foreigners to Israel, so why would they let these foreigners run free in their country? They have a great reason to block them, but what about Egypt? Why does nobody ever call for Egypt to open their border to them?
And this is why I think the people on your side will not be happy unless Israel is no longer a Jewish state. Gaza is it's own territory, internally run, yet somehow you still tie it to Israel and call it a "concentration camp". If Israel gave up the West Bank, you would probably say the same thing about The West Bank.
So it is pretty obvious, that the Palestinians and their supporters are only for a one state solution. Which basically means that this is going to go on forever.
No. The UK determined the land, which they controlled, would be used to establish the independent sovereign nation of Israel. The Balfour Declaration.
As "Palestine" (no such independent sovereign nation exists) did not then or ever own or control that land, so-called Palestinians have no say in the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133
I am sure the Zionists did everything they could including making payoffs, and offers of kickbacks to any politicians that would back them.
Doesn't matter. The UK controlled the land, the so-called Palestinians did not, and had not for centuries.
In 1960 the USA was 89% Caucasian and is now 69% and by 2050 will be 49%. Should Asians ,Hispanics and blacks be expelled or denied citizenship to maintain whites as the majority? the USA was founded and maintained as a majority white country for hundreds of years. Your argument against Palestinian citizenship is the same as expelling minorities to keep America majority white. In a minority majority America it will be repugnant and the erosion of support for Israel will continue amongst minorities and progressives.
The world will be a different place if the USA stops supporting Israel in the UN,
No. Many of the "minorities" in the U.S. behave as members of the majority. In other words, they assimilate. For the ones who don't, many of them suffer mightily.
The Palestinians were driven from their homes and lands. The 1948 resolution of the UN called for the Palestinians to have a right of return, but Israel passed laws not allowing Palestinians to return NOR get compensation for the stolen lands.
The Nakba was as vicious as any pogroms the Jewish people suffered for centuries, except this time, rather than being the victims of atrocities, the Jewish state was the perpetrator.
There are problems with that analysis. After the U.N. resolutions the Arab countries unanimously expelled their Jews and confiscated all of their property. The Arabs unleashed the "Nakba" (yes a disaster for them) by refusing to sit down and hash out the details of the coming Jewish state. When "the world" decided, by acquiescing in the Holocaust to kill or expel its Jews, the Jews had to go somewhere. When part of the jigsaw puzzle fought and wouldn't move what alternative did the Jews face? National suicide?
One poster suggested, as a solution, that we expel the Jews from Israel and settle them in New Jersey, and allow the “Palestinians” to remain in Israel (which they would promptly rename Palestine). Thus, the Hamas terrorists get their wish to remove Israel from the face of the earth.
How’s the following for a solution? Since three large antisemitic Arab states, in their effort to wipe Israel to sea, attacked the Jewish State, and were defeated in six short days by teensy Israel, and thus the land belongs to Israel now, that Egypt and Jordan resettle the foreigners now in Gaza and the West Bank into their own countries?
As a token of goodwill, Israel can cede back a small portion (maybe 20%) of the captured land. But enemy countries need to learn that you don’t attack your neighbor, lose land to them when you are defeated, and then wail that you want your land back.
Or , we could just resettle the Palestinians in New Jersey, as that poster suggested we do with the Israeli Jews.
Make the Palestinians citizens and allow them to vote for the Knesset. If they must be under the control of Israel, then give them a voice in government.
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