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By this logic, you should never go outside. You could be mugged, stabbed, shot, or murdered.
Don't drive a car, you could be hit by a drunk driver.
Never fly, your plane could crash.
Don't go to work, you could be fired.
Don't walk, you could be hit by a bus.
Lets ban marriage. Because apparently marriage leads to murder.
Or you could cut it out with the hyperbole here and realize that women just have to take a lot of sensible precautions 'cause some men are freaking perilous and we don't always have any way to know instantly which ones they are. I mean, we still look before we cross the street if we don't want to get run over by a bus.
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Originally Posted by William Blakeley
IMHO many seem to be conflating the stance of the proverbial " angry at the world because he can't get a girlfriend " male incel , with the stance of an individual ( not even necessarily a male ) who's critical of contemporary gender dynamics/relations in society and proposes a " traditionalist " alternative .
The very use of the term " incel " is heavily linked to a specific online based subculture and thus can be rather misleading when applied to the actual definition based reality , since there are many strictly speaking " incel " males ( myself included ) who for whatever reasons don't currently have a female intimate partner while still desiring/being open to having one , and still fall very short of actually making that part of their life a core aspect of their identity especially in the " mad at all women/the world for not having a girlfriend " sense .
Come to think of it , I suppose I could even start up an online subculture centered around the acronym of let's say HMWACIHRBWNTDWTIL ( Heterosexual Men Who Aren't Currently In Heterosexual Relationships But Want Nothing To Do With The Incel Label ) , but on a more serious note this subject is really overplayed and pumped up by certain segments of the media IMO .
All in all there is a very good/necessary conversation to be had about many of the issues brought up in this thread , yet unfortunately I don't see much hope of progress as long as the same usual poles of unreasonableness represented by both " incel " and " feminist " labeled views keep propping up .
Agree. I've been discussing this stuff on this site, mostly in Relationships but also in other subforums, for over a decade. There is a HUGE distinction that needs to be made, the technical meaning of the word "incel" (actually invented by a woman to describe herself, if I recall) is very, very different from the person who has joined online grievance/conspiracy groups and filled his mind and heart with bitter hate-sludge. Since we're in P&OC and I can say this here, it's every bit as different as the gap in ideology between a traditional moderate-conservative regular American person, and someone who is obsessed with Q-Anon.
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Originally Posted by sholomar
There's an old saying that people don't miss what they never had and a lot of men say you should try to lock women down before they've had a chance to sleep around with lots of dominant males because research shows the more men a woman sleeps with the more likely she is to divorce somebody because once they get this taste of what it's like to have complete unadulterated freedom often it's hard for them to even want to settle down I can see the argument of both sides to be honest there's no easy answer to deal with our biology.
And the problem with that is in our culture women are sleeping around by the time they're 15 so you're not really going to be able to do this... men underestimate just how much women enjoy sex with a dominant male over a regular male it's like a heroin addiction for them. Is it healthy to oppress human nature I don't think so best just to let them get it out of their system and hope that they appreciate good men in the end if they don't they don't it is what it is.
Insecure people have a need to control others if you are confident and secure in yourself you don't really need to try controlling all of your surroundings which is why it's not really possible to reach full potential in an authoritarian culture where they try to control everything you do. There is going to be a maximum amount of happiness that can be achieved in a culture like China for example of course they would argue the collective is more important than the individual...
I've always observed that a feature of so many of these kinds of posts, trying to science out mating behaviors...which was a really cool, novel idea like a couple of decades ago when they first started making the sweaty t shirt sniffing experiments and documentaries about whether men prefer red dresses, but yanno... it kinda sounds like you're an alien narrating an episode of Wild Kingdom about humans. "The dominant male..." Seriously?
As I always say, it is more arts/humanities than it will ever be math/science. I know that probably really upsets some guys who have leaned all the way into their autistic "I am very logical" identity thing but for real.
But if we must consider it like science, look at it this way... Take all of this "animal instinct" stuff and weigh its power against one's programming, what we learn growing up and watching other people. Our parents' and mentors' and peers' voices in our heads. Because truly what is in our "nature" more than ANYTHING else is big smart brain + super social. It takes us an outrageous amount of time to fully grow up and reach proper adulthood and all along the way and beyond, we are learning, learning, learning. And more than anything we are meant to be taking cues from the other humans around us. It's why isolation is so incredibly harmful to a person's development and ability to function.
Our instincts are nothing compared to our nurture. A person's "daddy issues" (or "mommy issues!") will have a lot more to do with their sexual decisions, than "Ooga dominant ape! Me breed babies!"
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Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
In most of society and in most marriages, the male is the breadwinner and the female takes care of young children.
This is how things have been for ages and across cultures. But liberals tell us this is archaic and not normal and you need to "open your mind" to other ways of living.
Nah. Liberals tell us, that it's not the One Twue Way that must be enforced on everyone.
We are forever baffled by an apparent desire of conservatives to turn everyone into identical clones living their lives like robots according to a singular program. I have no idea why you would want society to be that boring. I really do not get it.
And then ya'll go around saying the word, "freedom" as though you have any concept at all what it means.
Liberals don't want to stop you from living a nice little wholesome traditional life. At least not the vast majority of us, who are a lot more rational than the fringe you are thinking of, just like very few on the right are in fact racists for instance, and you're sick of being called that...the worst we could accuse one another of does not apply to the vast majority of either side here. Which a lot of folks don't want to accept, because every screen in front of our faces has been working to keep us all outraged and shouty for a whole bunch of years now. But I don't know about you...I'm starting to find all this edgy, fighty, stampede to the extremes crap to be pretty damn tiresome.
I'm not a subversive teenager anymore. I don't have the energy for it.
Anyways. I really think that the vast, sane majority of people in America, just want to be let to live life on their own terms as they please. We get pizzed off when anybody else seems to be trying to stop us from doing that. Hardly matters if your definition of happily ever after looks like a white picket fence pastel rancher and a couple of kids playing in the yard, or a trans-poly-gay-Leather-disco-deviant-orgy (that's what liberals call, "threatening us with a good time" btw)... E'rrybody needs to just respect each other's freedom and space and go do their own thing, and not try to MAKE anyone do whatever they don't want to.
It's not that complicated.
Some relationships are gonna have a female breadwinner these days. My household does. It works great for us. I know a stay at home Dad who raised a Valedictorian, the guy is an awesome parent. How in the almighty feck does whatever other people are doing, affect what you want to do? I'm a liberal and have never in my life taken issue with a family making the decision to operate in a traditional way. Go to church! Dance with snakes for all I care, seriously, I'm being absurd but it is so not my business!
All I say is, whatever it is you're doing...do it well. Play to win or get off the field. That's about the only universal advice that I have for anybody.
She is saying dont be dependent on another person for your wellbeing, survival and future.
So ban parents, nursing homes, caregivers, babysitters, legal guardians, stay at home mothers, and stay at home fathers.
Excellent logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Or you could cut it out with the hyperbole here and realize that women just have to take a lot of sensible precautions 'cause some men are freaking perilous and we don't always have any way to know instantly which ones they are. I mean, we still look before we cross the street if we don't want to get run over by a bus
Stay single, problem solved.
Demanding sympathy as a female in a western country when there are plenty of women in other countries who can’t even go to school, drive, or walk outside without a male escort, is not going to happen.
So ban parents, legal guardians, stay at home mothers, and stay at home fathers.
Excellent logic.
Your not even making sense. No one is calling for a ban on anything just stating an opinion that having the means to be financially independent as opposed to being totally dependent on another for your survival, wellbeing and future is a better option. Ill add this holds true for ones happiness as well.
Your not even making sense. No one is calling for a ban on anything just stating an opinion that having the means to be financially independent as opposed to being totally dependent on another for your survival, wellbeing and future is a better option. Ill add this holds true for ones happiness as well.
So again, ban parents, caregivers, babysitters, legal guardians, foster parents, nursing homes, stay at home mothers, and stay at home fathers.
Not everyone has the ability to be financially independent. Some people have disabilities, some people have criminal records, some people can’t find the right job, some people got laid off, some people got replaced by technology.
Did you miss the two year pandemic thing?
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Yelp data shows 60% of business closures due to the coronavirus pandemic are now permanent
Demanding sympathy as a female in a western country when there are plenty of women in other countries who can’t even go to school, drive, or walk outside without a male escort, is not going to happen.
Or just get an education/training so you are able to compete in the job market and continue working. Problem solved.
Who is demanding sympathy. Taking care of ones own life and future is not demanding sympathy.
Accepting abuse, oppression and dependency because somewhere else some people endure abuse, oppression and dependency is a ridiculous argument. I dont give a rats fat fanny what goes in other countries or other households, I'm not going to martyr myself because someone else has a sad existence of a life.
Your logic reminds me of my ex SIL when we were conversing about my ex husbands alcoholism and how it was leading to the demise of our marriage and she said to me "at least he doesn't hit you". As if I should be ok with the problems of his untreated alcoholism as long as he dosent hit me.
So again, ban parents, caregivers, babysitters, legal guardians, foster parents, nursing homes, stay at home mothers, and stay at home fathers.
Not everyone has the ability to be financially independent. Some people have disabilities, some people have criminal records, some people can’t find the right job, some people got laid off, some people got replaced by technology.
We are not talking about disabled people or unemployment. We are taking about entering into a marriage and choosing the traditional roles of breadwinner and housewife/SAHM.
Did you miss that central part of the conversation?
Or just get an education/training so you are able to compete in the job market and continue working. Problem solved.
Yeah, your degree in basketweaving is surely going to pay off.
You might want to actually learn what jobs actually pay a decent salary and are projected to be in high demand before thinking a random degree and student loans debt is your key to financial independence.
We are not talking about disabled people or unemployment. We are taking about entering into a marriage and choosing the traditional roles of breadwinner and housewife/SAHM.
Did you miss that central part of the conversation?
No one is going to ban stay at home mothers and stay at home fathers.
No one is going to ban stay at home mothers and stay at home fathers.
Clearly you never heard of alimony.
Alimony these days, if awarded at all, is usually limited to a few years to allow the formerly-stay-at-home parent a chance to get educated and find a job. Lifetime alimony disappeared decades ago.
That is why a stay at home parent needs to always maintain job skills. To be able to work and be independent. Also applies to widows/widowers, not just divorcees.
Alimony these days, if awarded at all, is usually limited to a few years to allow the formerly-stay-at-home parent a chance to get educated and find a job. Lifetime alimony disappeared decades ago.
Wow, good thing there’s also alimony, child support, and the division of assets.
But yes, keep insulting the IQ of stay at home parents.
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Originally Posted by ansible90
That is why a stay at home parent needs to always maintain job skills. To be able to work and be independent. Also applies to widows/widowers, not just divorcees.
It’s none of your business how married people choose to raise their kids.
Insulting the work ethic of stay at home parents isn’t going to help your argument. And there’s countless life insurance policies for windows/widowers, when their spouse is alive to buy it, this is common sense.
Last edited by Rocko20; 05-10-2022 at 10:55 AM..
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